Salvation is a totally FREE GIFT: (the pearl)

[Otherright]

Buddhism has Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana, Shingon, Chan...

I didn't mean denominations, I meant concepts of salvation.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I hope not.

Wait - so you hope your God doesn't behave the way you just explained he behaves? I'm confused.

 

[javajo]

When you say many religions, do you mean many denominations? Because Dharmmic religions don't have such concepts in them. Nor does Judaism.

Scripturally, there are apparently many path to salvation, for the nature of salvation, as it is mentioned in the scriptures are at times self-contradicting and are open to wide range of interpretations, as is evidenced through various denominations.

Even sub-sets within denominations vary. General baptists believe it to be through grace, by faith, and maintained by work. Missionary baptists see it as through faith, by grace, requiring no other works.

What I am saying is that of the religions that believe in salvation, they all teach salvation is achieved whereas I believe salvation is received (no maintenance work needed).

 

[javajo]

Wait - so you hope your God doesn't behave the way you just explained he behaves? I'm confused.

I was joking.

 

[Otherright]

What I am saying is that of the religions that believe in salvation, they all teach salvation is achieved whereas I believe salvation is received (no maintenance work needed).

Will you elaborate on this, that is, achieved vs received?

 

[javajo]

Will you elaborate on this, that is, achieved vs received?

I can try. Basically what I believe is that all have sinned. God is holy and just. Nobody can enter Heaven who is not perfectly holy, as James says that if we break one commandment we are guilty of all. In other words if we commit one sin we aren't perfectly holy. God's justice demands sin to be paid for and the penalty of sin is death. I don't know why it is this way or if God could have made a better plan, I just know this is what I believe the Bible teaches.

So God in his infinite wisdom and love gave his Son who paid the penalty of sin, he died. All our sins are paid for and we can add nothing else to what he did, he paid for all our sins. Its like a loan, when its been paid, you stop making payments. So we can add nothing to that. All we do is receive salvation as a free gift that has already been paid for.

Jesus said to believe in, that is trust in, rely on him and his finished work on the cross for eternal life. Once we do that, we have life and we have it eternally, never to be lost. A great exchange takes place, we give Jesus our sins and he gives us his righteousness in place of our own which is "as filthy rags."

A lot of other things happen as well, we are now adopted as God's children, sealed by the Holy Spirit, and where we were spiritually dead toward God we are now made alive, born again if you will. We come to God just as we are and once we are freely saved God begins to work in us and change us.

There are no good works needed to maintain our salvation, its a done deal never to be undone, but good works will follow as a result of salvation as we grow in grace. Some grow more than others. Well that's about it for a quick summary anyhow. And, that is just my personal belief, not asking anyone to believe that of course.

 

[Adonis65]

... but good works will follow as a result of salvation as we grow in grace.

How do those who are saved know that they've done a sufficient amount of good works? What are "good works"?

 

[Otherright]

I can try. Basically what I believe is that all have sinned. God is holy and just. Nobody can enter Heaven who is not perfectly holy, as James says that if we break one commandment we are guilty of all. In other words if we commit one sin we aren't perfectly holy. God's justice demands sin to be paid for and the penalty of sin is death. I don't know why it is this way or if God could have made a better plan, I just know this is what I believe the Bible teaches.

So God in his infinite wisdom and love gave his Son who paid the penalty of sin, he died. All our sins are paid for and we can add nothing else to what he did, he paid for all our sins. Its like a loan, when its been paid, you stop making payments. So we can add nothing to that. All we do is receive salvation as a free gift that has already been paid for.

Jesus said to believe in, that is trust in, rely on him and his finished work on the cross for eternal life. Once we do that, we have life and we have it eternally, never to be lost. A great exchange takes place, we give Jesus our sins and he gives us his righteousness in place of our own which is "as filthy rags."

A lot of other things happen as well, we are now adopted as God's children, sealed by the Holy Spirit, and where we were spiritually dead toward God we are now made alive, born again if you will. We come to God just as we are and once we are freely saved God begins to work in us and change us.

There are no good works needed to maintain our salvation, its a done deal never to be undone, but good works will follow as a result of salvation as we grow in grace. Some grow more than others. Well that's about it for a quick summary anyhow. And, that is just my personal belief, not asking anyone to believe that of course.

OK, I will discuss this with you theologically, within Christian framework. Within that framework, you are right, all have sinned and are inheritors of sin through the seed of Adam.

Right, but just like loans, there are stipulations. It isn't just handed to you for showing up. It requires belief. Theologically, it requires conviction, repentance, etc, depending on the interpretation of the group.

From a standpoint of higher criticism, why would God have continued the line of inheritance of sin, if he was going to automatically dis-spell it through Christ? Why would he require his son to be killed if his plan was simply to dis-spell it?

See, I'm reading as I'm typing. You acknowledge then, in your third paragraph that it isn't freely given, then, that it does require belief.

So, you take the position of a spiritual metamorphosis of some kind. That once salvation is received, there is a change in the soul, and it remains regardless. That is actually how the Missionary Baptists in this region believe.

Belief in that is fine. At one time I was convinced of that. But it does offer some theological problems.

 

[javajo]

OK, I will discuss this with you theologically, within Christian framework. Within that framework, you are right, all have sinned and are inheritors of sin through the seed of Adam.

Right, but just like loans, there are stipulations. It isn't just handed to you for showing up. It requires belief. Theologically, it requires conviction, repentance, etc, depending on the interpretation of the group.

From a standpoint of higher criticism, why would God have continued the line of inheritance of sin, if he was going to automatically dis-spell it through Christ? Why would he require his son to be killed if his plan was simply to dis-spell it?

See, I'm reading as I'm typing. You acknowledge then, in your third paragraph that it isn't freely given, then, that it does require belief.

So, you take the position of a spiritual metamorphosis of some kind. That once salvation is received, there is a change in the soul, and it remains regardless. That is actually how the Missionary Baptists in this region believe.

Belief in that is fine. At one time I was convinced of that. But it does offer some theological problems.

Yes, I believe we must believe or have believed at some point in time. This belief or faith is not considered a 'work' in the Bible. The faith is even a gift from God:
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

 

[Otherright]

Yes, I believe we must believe or have believed at some point in time. This belief or faith is not considered a 'work' in the Bible. The faith is even a gift from God:
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

Sorry, I don't see faith as a gift from God, especially since it is required for you to have it to believe that Jesus was the son of God. You would have to have it as a prerequisite.

 

[Falvlun]

Sorry, I don't see faith as a gift from God, especially since it is required for you to have it to believe that Jesus was the son of God. You would have to have it as a prerequisite.

Yes, it does seem strange that salvation is billed as a "free gift", yet you must believe in it in order to receive it. It's like one of those cereal box offers: Free! *with proof of purchase of 10 boxes of Cheerios.

And whoever heard of forgiveness requiring acceptance of forgiveness by the forgiven?

I am sorry. I am getting rather cynical in this thread.

 

[javajo]

How do those who are saved know that they've done a sufficient amount of good works? What are "good works"?

I believe good works have nothing to do with salvation. We are saved by faith, by trusting in Christ that he paid for our sins by dying on the cross. If one were saved by works, then they would never know if they'd done enough or been good enough. But I believe we are saved by grace (undeserved favor) through faith in Christ.

 

[javajo]

Sorry, I don't see faith as a gift from God, especially since it is required for you to have it to believe that Jesus was the son of God. You would have to have it as a prerequisite.

I believe faith is a gift. We can ask God for faith.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Ephesians 2:8

 

[Adonis65]

I believe good works have nothing to do with salvation. We are saved by faith, by trusting in Christ that he paid for our sins by dying on the cross. If one were saved by works, then they would never know if they'd done enough or been good enough. But I believe we are saved by grace (undeserved favor) through faith in Christ.

So what you're really saying is that you can literally sit on your butt and wait for the Savior to welcome you into the kingdom of God?

 

[javajo]

Yes, it does seem strange that salvation is billed as a "free gift", yet you must believe in it in order to receive it. It's like one of those cereal box offers: Free! *with proof of purchase of 10 boxes of Cheerios.

And whoever heard of forgiveness requiring acceptance of forgiveness by the forgiven?

I am sorry. I am getting rather cynical in this thread.

I will try to clarify, and this is just my beliefs, I am not asking anyone to believe how I do, I am just sharing my personal beliefs. If I said I'll give you a car for free if you pay me $100 a month for 12 months, then its not free. If I said salvation is free but then said you had to work real hard to get it and maintain it by doing lots of good works, i.e. church participation, witnessing, praying, reading the Bible performing ceremonies and sacraments and helping the needy, etc, etc. then its not free by faith, it is of works.

The Bible separates believing faith from works. Believing is hard to do for many, but it is not considered a work. For salvation all our works of righteousness are as filthy rags to a holy God. Trusting in Christ that he paid the penalty (death) of our sins and gave us his righteousness in place of our own is what saves. Good works may and should come as a result of our growing in Christ and some grow better than others.

If someone gives someone a gift, they have to accept the gift. If someone is drowning in the middle of the ocean and I give them a life preserver, they must trust that it will save them and accept it and put it on. I believe it is the same with Jesus, we have to stop relying on our own good works and our own goodness or anything we do and rely on him to save us and put our trust completely in him and his finished work on the cross. That's what I believe anyway.

 

[Skwim]

Salvation is a totally FREE GIFT: (the pearl)

"FREE GIFT" :cover: Hardly. If it was then there wouldn't be all the hoops one has to jump through to get it. Here's just one example.

Requirements for Salvation

Belief

Repentance

Baptism

Live a Godly life

Confess with your mouth

Believe God raised Jesus from the dead

Believe in the virgin birth

Believe in the rapture

source
​

 

[freethinker44]

Hi, the Bible says that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son...so what did he lose? I don't know that he lost anything, but he did give us his Son to die, thus paying the penalty of sin (death). Of course he got him back so he never lost him, but he did give him. Part of which entailed his leaving the glory of Heaven, becoming human, being mocked, scourged, crucified and also becoming sin for us. That is apart from the physical suffering and death, he bore our iniquities, he paid the penalty and suffered and died in our place and was forsaken so we may be freely forgiven. I believe it is hard for any father to watch a child endure suffering and on the scale Jesus suffered it must have been unimaginable having, born the sins of the whole world.

Yes it must have been hard for god to watch his son have to be human for a little while. We should all praise god because he took on the humiliation of being human. He truly is great.

 

[freethinker44]

I believe faith is a gift. We can ask God for faith.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Ephesians 2:8

You can't ask for faith. Faith is something you give to god because he gives no reason to believe, if god gives you reason to believe then it isn't faith, it is god proving his existence.

 

[javajo]

So what you're really saying is that you can literally sit on your butt and wait for the Savior to welcome you into the kingdom of God?

Yup. I believe salvation is free. Jesus paid for our sins on the cross, they are all paid for so we can't pay for any of them, the account is closed. I also believe that after a person is freely saved that God will not leave them the way they are. I believe the Holy Spirit who indwells, seals, and gifts every believer begins to lead and guide the newborn babe in Christ to grow in Christ. God corrects every son/daughter whom he receives and begins the work of conforming them into his image, that is to be like Christ with the fruits of the Spirit like love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, etc. Also, some will yield to the Spirit and grow and produce much of this 'fruit' while others will not. Some will get to go to Heaven, but may not have the same rewards as others or position in Christ's Kingdom, yet still be saved. That's what I believe anyway.

 

[Adonis65]

You can't ask for faith. Faith is something you give to god because he gives no reason to believe, if god gives you reason to believe then it isn't faith, it is god proving his existence.

Spoken like a true anti-theist.