Salvation is a totally FREE GIFT: (the pearl)

[javajo]

well.... I don't knit... or crochet... so......


*Suddenly remembers the taste of green peppermint jelly!*
mMmmmmMMmmmm

mmm...mint chocolate chip ice cream is good, too!

 

[doppelganger]

Do whatever you wish, just don't try to pay for it.

So it's not free? I have to "not try to pay for it"? 'Cause if I do try to pay for it, I can't have it or I lose it?

And aside from you thinking you need "salvation," why would you think I need it, let alone that I would ever pay for it?

For the record, I never pay for it.

 

[Awoon]

"be delivered over to Satan" means let him/her continue their habitual bad habits and it will kill them.

 

[javajo]

So it's not free?

Its free

I have to "not try to pay for it"? 'Cause if I do try to pay for it, I can't have it or I lose it?

Um. You don't have to "not try to pay for it". Its already been paid for anyway. And you can't have it if you try to pay for it, the giver would be insulted. But if you accept it you can never lose it.

And aside from you thinking you need "salvation," why would you think I need it, let alone that I would ever pay for it?

I believe we all need it, personally. I hope you would never try to pay for it, which, I'm sure you won't since you don't see the need for it, which is cool.

For the record, I never pay for it.

Lol! Me neither, unless you consider being married paying for it.

 

[javajo]

"be delivered over to Satan" means let him/her continue their habitual bad habits and it will kill them.

That's a good explanation. Thanks.

 

[doppelganger]

But if you accept it you can never lose it.

So again it's not free. I have to do something to accept it. In legal terminology, it is offered, and I accept it by some kind of performance and we have an exchange of consideration (in this case salvation for some act of "acceptance" which we'll get to in a sec). That's a contract. Contracts are, by their very nature, not "free".


Now you mentioned that I have to "accept" it. What does that entail? Does it matter what one is offering as the focal point for the delivery of my salvation? Or is the only thing that matters my belief that by engaging in the act of "acceptance" I have obtained my salvation?

And doesn't that mean that the only reason I needed saving in the first place was because I had the thought that I did? If so, does it matter what I accept (or HOW I accept it) so long as doing so introduces the companion thought that my needed salvation is obtained?

 

[Shermana]

Lets go take a look...

First let me point out this was written to believers:

(Paul)...Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's: 1 Cor. 1:2

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Cor. 6:11

1 Corinthians 5

1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Corinthians 2

6Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.
7So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
8Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
9For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
10To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
11Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

From my observation, Paul wrote to believers, carnal as they were, and really let them have it for many things. This man was to "be delivered over to Satan", (don't know exactly how that plays out), that his body may be killed but his spirit would be saved. So, his salvation was not in danger, but his earthly life was. But he apparently acknowledged his sin and repented, and Paul told them to forgive him and love and comfort him.

Okay, so if one is turned over to "Satan for destruction" for sleeping with their stepmother, it means they will only be killed in the flesh according to you. I highly disagree and think that "Turns over to Satan" means they are going to him after they die. Does this apply to murderers and adulterers and rapists and defrauders and such too? You just think they will die early but still go to Heaven? Interesting...Now wouldn't they be getting the better deal since they are simply getting out of their body quicker?

If the logic is that being "turned over to Satan for destruction" merely means earthly death, it looks like their fate isn't so bad if they're still getting "saved".

And of course, when Paul said "Continue to work out your salvation" that doesn't mean that Salvation is something that must be "Continued" to be "Worked out" of course.

 

[Shermana]

"be delivered over to Satan" means let him/her continue their habitual bad habits and it will kill them.

So they can continue their bad habits all they want and they are still going to heaven, they just die a little earlier, isnt' that a better deal for them?

 

[Awoon]

So they can continue their bad habits all they want and they are still going to heaven, they just die a little earlier, isnt' that a better deal for them?

I posted the Aramaic Semitic meaning of Paul's statement.
I never mentioned any heaven.

 

[Alceste]

It's entirely consequential! Just because a particular expression of God's love for God's people, and God's justice illuminate them in a particular way does not in any way mean that the particular illumination is factual.

In order to determine the morality of the characters, one has to analyze it from the cultural standpoint from which the stories were written.

I thought Christians stood against moral relativity.

Whether a story of the behavior of a person (or entity) is fictional or not, we should be able to guage the morality of the character in question by her actions. The Tao Te Ching was compiled long before the Bible by people even more alien to me than the ancient Jews, but the descriptions of the behavior and attitude of wise people within resonate as highly ethical. If the Bile's various books were ever meant to be communicate some kind of universal morality, the authors went very badly wrong somewhere.

 

[Alceste]

I don't know, because the passage is lifted completely out of context. And in order to discover what he saves them for, we'd have to know something about the culture that wrote the story.

But we do know what they were saved for: child sex slaves for a conquering army. The context is that their entire families had just been murdered, their houses burned to the ground and their livestock slaughtered at God's command.

All part of God's grand, benevolent, ineffable plan, I suppose. Still a scumbag move in my book. You don't see the Tao Te Ching recommending such things.

 

[javajo]

Okay, so if one is turned over to "Satan for destruction" for sleeping with their stepmother, it means they will only be killed in the flesh according to you. I highly disagree and think that "Turns over to Satan" means they are going to him after they die. Does this apply to murderers and adulterers and rapists and defrauders and such too? You just think they will die early but still go to Heaven? Interesting...Now wouldn't they be getting the better deal since they are simply getting out of their body quicker?

Well, it says to turn them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved, so...Apparently he repented and was forgiven and even his 'flesh' (life) was spared along with his spirit. (his mercy endureth forever).

Check this out:

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
12All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. 1 Cor. 6

Here it says they were sinners like those mentioned above but have been bought with a price and now are washed, sanctified, and justified. He says not to do those things anymore. While all things are lawful under the perfect law of liberty, all things are not expedient (good and profitable) and we are not to be under the power of sin. In other passages he says we reap what we sow, and don't use your liberty as a cloak of malice. He commands us not to do those things, for we have been bought with a price.

 

[doppelganger]

Who does God save in Numbers 31:17-18, and what does he save them for?

Wow. Never carefully read the whole context of that passage before. In the story, God commands that only virgin girls be saved so that they can become slaves (presumably sex slaves, given the creepily ubiquitous fascination with female virginity throughout so many of the writings collected in this book).

 

[Shermana]

Well, it says to turn them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved, so...Apparently he repented and was forgiven and even his 'flesh' (life) was spared along with his spirit. (his mercy endureth forever).

Check this out:

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
12All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. 1 Cor. 6

Here it says they were sinners like those mentioned above but have been bought with a price and now are washed, sanctified, and justified. He says not to do those things anymore. While all things are lawful under the perfect law of liberty, all things are not expedient (good and profitable) and we are not to be under the power of sin. In other passages he says we reap what we sow, and don't use your liberty as a cloak of malice. He commands us not to do those things, for we have been bought with a price.

Okay, so in other words, all things are lawful means you can do anything you want including murder, rape, arson, theft, defrauding, etc. even if you are commanded not to, you'll still be saved. You don't really have to repent, as long as you "believe", you can do what you want...

Unless you're ready to admit that you have to obey the Law if you believe.

It doesn't matter whether he commands you not to or not if you're still saved right? So what's the point of obeying anything?

 

[javajo]

So again it's not free. I have to do something to accept it. In legal terminology, it is offered, and I accept it by some kind of performance and we have an exchange of consideration (in this case salvation for some act of "acceptance" which we'll get to in a sec). That's a contract. Contracts are, by their very nature, not "free".


Now you mentioned that I have to "accept" it. What does that entail? Does it matter what one is offering as the focal point for the delivery of my salvation? Or is the only thing that matters my belief that by engaging in the act of "acceptance" I have obtained my salvation?

And doesn't that mean that the only reason I needed saving in the first place was because I had the thought that I did? If so, does it matter what I accept (or HOW I accept it) so long as doing so introduces the companion thought that my needed salvation is obtained?

If someone offers you a gift, it is considered free. You reach out your hand and accept the free gift. If you offer payment for it, it is no longer a gift. Like a loan, once its paid for you quit making payments. In this case the loan has already been paid for you. While it is free, it is not easy to believe in Jesus, who nobody living has seen, who lived 2,000 years ago, etc. But it is free as far as, you don't have to work for it. If you don't feel one needs salvation from anything, then its no use talking about it.

 

[doppelganger]

Unless you're ready to admit that you have to obey the Law if you believe.

Excellent point. It's my belief I am under the Law that necessitates salvation in the first place. When the mystery of Christ in me becomes apparent (which is not something "I" can will or choose) thought changes so I see that I was never under the Law to begin with except solely through the action of thought placing me there.

 

[Alceste]

Wow. Never carefully read the whole context of that passage before. In the story, God commands that only virgin girls be saved so that they can become slaves (presumably sex slaves, given the creepily ubiquitous fascination with female virginity throughout so many of the writings collected in this book).

Yes, that's how I read it too. No doubt we are both making a terrible, shallow-thinking mistake interpreting the text as if it means exactly what it says. lol.

 

[doppelganger]

If someone offers you a gift, it is considered free. You reach out your hand and accept the free gift.

But if I have to do something in particular to "accept" it, then payment of some kind is demanded. It is therefore not free. See? The mode of "acceptance" is the rub.

So what are the mechanics of "acceptance" of salvation?
Are they different than what I was asking about in my other questions that you did not answer?

 

[javajo]

Okay, so in other words, all things are lawful means you can do anything you want including murder, rape, arson, theft, defrauding, etc. even if you are commanded not to, you'll still be saved. You don't really have to repent, as long as you "believe", you can do what you want...

Unless you're ready to admit that you have to obey the Law if you believe.

It doesn't matter whether he commands you not to or not if you're still saved right? So what's the point of obeying anything?

That is not what the passage says at all. It commands us NOT to do those things because we have been bought with a price. One who has been forgiven and has the Holy Spirit guiding them tends to love God and want to obey him. If someone thinks they can get away with sin, they are sadly mistaken, and that's why many of the Corinthians were sick and dead.

 

[Shermana]

That is not what the passage says at all. It commands us NOT to do those things because we have been bought with a price. One who has been forgiven and has the Holy Spirit guiding them tends to love God and want to obey him. If someone thinks they can get away with sin, they are sadly mistaken, and that's why many of the Corinthians were sick and dead.

You didn't get what I said.

Whether you are commanded to or not, you're saying all you have to do is believe to be "saved" and that you don't have to worry about your behavior.

Now all of the sudden you do? What does it matter if you get sick and die as long as you're going to heaven?