Salvation is a totally FREE GIFT: (the pearl)

[Shermana]

I'm not sure that is the Biblical position. What we get "saved" from is the penalty of sin which is death. To enter heaven only belief in Christ is needed on our part.

"Verily your righteousness must exceed the scribes and Pharisees or you will in no wise enter the Kingdom".

The Scribes and Pharisees were not necessarily unrighteous, just misguided.

 

[javajo]

Why would God have to deal with him only after he's murdered me? If God knows full well of the threat to my life, is capable of intervening at no risk to himself, and cares about my well-being, why would he let me be killed?

Every now and then there are news stories about horrible crimes where witnesses saw what was happening and didn't intervene - they didn't warn the victim, call the police, or step in to stop the attack... and these people are generally held in a very negative light. How is God any better?

At the very least, we can infer from God's actions that he doesn't really care if a positive outcome happens.

Again that is part of free will. If he stops someone from killing someone, its not free will. Anyway, this fallen earth will be restored, God is just and will make all things right, think of him what you will.

 

[javajo]

I for one, could not be happy for eternity,
knowing that people I love dearly
are suffering constant unending torture.
There would be sorrow and crying daily for me.
And at the hand of the one who supposedly loves me the most?!
Add to that anger and hatred.

Such an existence could not possibly be 'heaven' for me.

And for those who say that the fires of hell
are the fires of uncreation,
if I had to choose between an eternity
with the one who purposely robbed me
of my beloved ones,
(and them of their very BEing!)
or uncreation,
I can hardly imagine that I wouldn't choose the latter.

An eternity of anger, even rage
against the one whose domain you share,
is hell.
I already have a lesser version of that here,
right now,
except being that this one is only a petty tyrant,
I can get out, and build a BETTER life on my own.
(so I can lay down my anger, for pragmatic action).
I rather suspect there would be no getting away
from your ALL POWERFUL tyrant,
and no getting away from my resentment
and hatred.

If I were clever and strong enough,
it's just what I would do.
Get away.

I believe when we stand in the courtroom of heaven, every mouth will be stopped and God will be seen to be fair, merciful, good and just, believe as you may. But, putting all that aside, are you ok? It sounds as if you are in an abusive situation from your statement: I already have a lesser version of that here, right now, except being that this one is only a petty tyrant, I can get out, and build a BETTER life on my own. (so I can lay down my anger, for pragmatic action). If I were clever and strong enough, it's just what I would do. Get away.

I hope you are ok. And that you can get out. I will pray for you.

 

[javajo]

"Verily your righteousness must exceed the scribes and Pharisees or you will in no wise enter the Kingdom".

The Scribes and Pharisees were not necessarily unrighteous, just misguided.

When we believe in Christ, his 100% perfect righteousness is imputed unto us. Nothing less will do.

 

[johnhanks]

Anyway, this fallen earth will be restored...

Fallen from what, exactly? Scripture apart, what evidence can you present that humans were ever any 'better' (by any criterion you like) than they are now?

 

[blackout]

I believe when we stand in the courtroom of heaven, every mouth will be stopped and God will be seen to be fair, merciful, good and just, believe as you may. But, putting all that aside, are you ok? It sounds as if you are in an abusive situation from your statement: I already have a lesser version of that here, right now, except being that this one is only a petty tyrant, I can get out, and build a BETTER life on my own. (so I can lay down my anger, for pragmatic action). If I were clever and strong enough, it's just what I would do. Get away.

I hope you are ok. And that you can get out. I will pray for you.

Petty is petty.

Annoying like a huge stinking,buzzing fly.
(and by huge, I mean over five feet of huge)
A stinking obnoxious fly who loves garbage.
He literally lives in it, and loves it, in that he will not part with it,
for anything, or anyone.
Admittedly that can be annoying enough
to get ones blood pressure way up
and ones spirits way down,
if they are not very careful.

eh, and don't bother praying for me.
You could just send money for a divorce lawyer maybe.
If you really want to help.

 

[javajo]

Petty is petty.

Annoying like a huge stinking,buzzing fly.
(and by huge, I mean over five feet of huge)
A stinking obnoxious fly who loves garbage.
He literally lives in it, and loves it, in that he will not part with it,
for anything, or anyone.
Admittedly that can be annoying enough
to get ones blood pressure way up
and ones spirits way down,
if they are not very careful.

eh, and don't bother praying for me.
You could just send money for a divorce lawyer maybe.
If you really want to help.

So, we disagree, no problem. I do agree, I can't stand flies. Well, I might still pray for you, I believe in it. I'm poor as a church mouse, so I can't help financially, maybe some others here can, anybody? (we just sent one child to college, and are paying for another to home school, and another, well, he's just a mess, and I got chewed out for sending $20.00 to support missionaries in Asia, yesterday, so...) Anyway, I'll butt out of your business with a small word of advice. Reach out to others for help, maybe find a shelter for women, if its that bad and all. Ok, peace.

 

[sojourner]

What is it about submission to the authority of the Christian church that brings us into "divinity"?

Nothing. The church doesn't save. It was precisely the act of God becoming human that reconciles humanity to God.

I never saw anything divine in the church the entire time I went, and I have often felt profound (non-denominational, non-theistic) spiritual ecstasy outside the church, especially in nature, by myself.

I suppose there's no accounting for taste...
But I'm glad you acknowledge some kind of spiritual experience. The thing that's unique about Christianity is that it stresses spiritual experience within community -- not alone.

On a purely spiritual level, I feel strongly that submitting to what seems to be a fallible, human hierarchy like a church would actually deprive me of all the divinity I know.

Why do you feel as though you have to submit to some structure? You are the church -- along with other members of the community. Submission is only to the best interests of the group of which you are part.

 

[sojourner]

I am pointing out that the deity described in the bible very often engages in obviously evil acts, especially in the OT. It's inconsequential whether the stories are metaphorical or historical. Although, for the record, I view the Bible as fiction from cover to cover. I can still discuss whether the characters in the story are behaving morally or immorally, just like with any other book.

It's entirely consequential! Just because a particular expression of God's love for God's people, and God's justice illuminate them in a particular way does not in any way mean that the particular illumination is factual.

In order to determine the morality of the characters, one has to analyze it from the cultural standpoint from which the stories were written.

 

[javajo]

It was precisely the act of God becoming human that reconciles humanity to God.

What scripture do you base that on?

 

[sojourner]

Who does God save in Numbers 31:17-18, and what does he save them for?

I don't know, because the passage is lifted completely out of context. And in order to discover what he saves them for, we'd have to know something about the culture that wrote the story.

 

[javajo]

Fallen from what, exactly? Scripture apart, what evidence can you present that humans were ever any 'better' (by any criterion you like) than they are now?

Fallen creation/man is what I mean. The whole creation groans and travails but it will be restored. Since the first humans sinned and passed it on to us all, we all have sinned. The only time 'humans were ever any better' was in the Garden.

 

[sojourner]

Because I am not a Christian, I don't have to assume there is a benevolent message somewhere in there and spend ages trying to find it (and make something up if it turns out not to be there).

No, but if you purport to make an interpretation, and further, to broadcast that interpretation, it's advisable to spend some fair amount of time actually exegeting what you pretend to interpret, else look the fool, which I know you're not!

Just as the god of the Aztecs was a brutal, bloodthirsty god, the god of the Jews was a brutal, bloodthirsty god.

The Aztec gods didn't make it out of their birth-culture. The Jewish God did. Therefore, as understanding and cultures shift, our picture of God shifts with them. The Aztec gods aren't afforded that opportunity. God didn't become static with the closing of the OT. Neither is God as presented therein always presented as "bloodthirsty." God is also presented as tender, as loving, as merciful, as forebearing.

Ergo, it's childish to refer to God only in light of one facet of understanding, since there are many facets.

Put another way, I am as lacking for motivation in finding the "correct" (read: non-critical) interpretation of Bible passages as you are in finding the "correct" (read: non-critical) interpretation of Aztec scrolls.

Fair enough, but, as I've already said, since God has been brought into our time and culture, we have to take our post-modern understanding into consideration when making a judgment as to what God is "like."

Both are fascinating historical curiosities, but my world view is so alien to that of the ancient authors of these texts that there is no possibility of my understanding them as they were intended to be understood.

God is "intended" to be understood as much through our own cultural stories and lenses as through the biblical story and the lens of the cultures that wrote it.

 

[sojourner]

My father was a minister.

So's mine. And my mother. And my grandfather. And my ex-wife, ex-father-in-law, and two ex-sisters-in-law and one ex-brother-in-law. What in the world does that have to do with the process of exegesis?

 

[sojourner]

What scripture do you base that on?

Take your pick!

 

[javajo]

Take your pick!

I was asking you.

 

[sojourner]

I was asking you.

Read any of the birth-narratives...

 

[javajo]

Read any of the birth-narratives...

I didn't find anything in the birth narratives that said the act of God becoming human reconciles humanity to God. I found passages saying that unto us is born a Saviour, a horn of salvation to give knowledge of salvation by remission of sins. But nothing saying his birth reconciles us to God. I did find these:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Eph. 2
20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself;
4In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Col. 1

According to these and other verses we are reconciled by his death on the cross. What say ye?

 

[sojourner]

I didn't find anything in the birth narratives that said the act of God becoming human reconciles humanity to God. I found passages saying that unto us is born a Saviour, a horn of salvation to give knowledge of salvation by remission of sins. But nothing saying his birth reconciles us to God. I did find these:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Eph. 2
20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself;
4In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Col. 1

According to these and other verses we are reconciled by his death on the cross. What say ye?

You're not reading deeply enough.

 

[javajo]

You're not reading deeply enough.

Care to enlighten me?