Salvation is a totally FREE GIFT: (the pearl)

[sojourner]

If you or I loved plankton, would this mean we could understand what it is like to be plankton?

c'mon. You're a better debater than that!

In your formultion, what makes God's expectations "the right thing"?

I just said: God's creation; God's rules.
This is all theological construction, and it comes with several assumptions. God's expectations are the "right thing" because God is Truth.

 

[sojourner]

It doesn't seem so loving when we remember that God, as perfect sovereign, would have perfect responsibility for everything that happens, including the "debt of sin" he decided to save us from.

No, because God gives us culpability for our own choices.

 

[Jeneshisu]

No, I'm not a Universalist. I don't believe that when we stand before God, we will be able to say its his fault we did wrong. God did not want robots, he gave us free will and people decided to do evil to others. God did not make anyone kill or rape, etc. anyone, they decided to do that themselves. But believe what you want about God, I won't argue about it.

I think that if God wanted save us all, he would have.

Rather than act like a spoiled child and saved only those he liked (aka those who worship him). It's utterly selfish and repugnant. And then to throw a tantrum and unleash vengeance on those who don't care for it.

God is anything but perfect in my opinion. He's incredibly human, sin and all I would say.

c'mon. You're a better debater than that!

I just said: God's creation; God's rules.
This is all theological construction, and it comes with several assumptions. God's expectations are the "right thing" because God is Truth.

In other words, you've locked your mode of thinking so tightly into one box (of circular logic) because...? Regardless if it makes sense to you, you don't call the shots, God does. I guess that makes life easier, doesn't it? I can't think of any other reason why someone would choose to think that way?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, I'm not a Universalist.

So... an all-powerful God tries his utmost to save humanity, but people end up not being saved? How could this happen?

c'mon. You're a better debater than that!

And you're a better debater than this. You could give an actual response instead of heckling.

I just said: God's creation; God's rules.
This is all theological construction, and it comes with several assumptions. God's expectations are the "right thing" because God is Truth.

The door was the way to... to... The Door was The Way. Good. Capital letters were always the best way of dealing with things you didn't have a good answer to.

No, because God gives us culpability for our own choices.

That doesn't absolve God of culpability; it would just mean that we share culpability with him.

 

[javajo]

I think that if God wanted save us all, he would have.

Rather than act like a spoiled child and saved only those he liked (aka those who worship him). It's utterly selfish and repugnant. And then to throw a tantrum and unleash vengeance on those who don't care for it.

God is anything but perfect in my opinion. He's incredibly human, sin and all I would say.

The Bible says:

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:5-10

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:19-20

 

[javajo]

So... an all-powerful God tries his utmost to save humanity, but people end up not being saved? How could this happen?

Freewill. Men chose to do evil and walk in darkness. They will not come to God, who is love and light.

 

[Jeneshisu]

The Bible says:

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:5-10

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:19-20

I'm curious. Do you believe in this because you actually believe it? Or are you one of the ones who believes that regardless of it makes sense, you don't have much of a choice or else God will see that you're tortured for eternity?

Because that's the reality of it...

My heart can't begin to comprehend the bondage that is "This is the way that it is because God said it and He makes the rules." .___. It just completely disagrees with my entire being.

I just want to know, what is the the reason for the conviction in your heart that makes you want to believe that this is truth..?

 

[javajo]

I'm curious. Do you believe in this because you actually believe it? Or are you one of the ones who believes that regardless of it makes sense, you don't have much of a choice or else God will see that you're tortured for eternity?

Because that's the reality of it...

My heart can't begin to comprehend the bondage that is "This is the way that it is because God said it and He makes the rules." .___. It just completely disagrees with my entire being.

I just want to know, what is the the reason for the conviction in your heart that makes you want to believe that this is truth..?

I do believe the Bible. I believe God is love and light but men chose to do evil to one another. Those who do evil and won't turn to God, the Father of Lights, will end up separated from that light and love and all that is good. I think that will be the "torture". They will know they hated God who loves them and continued being evil to people and will have no one to blame but themselves.

13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

Amen to that. According to Ephesians 2:8-9, we are saved by grace through faith alone.

 

[Jeneshisu]

I do believe the Bible. I believe God is love and light but men chose to do evil to one another. Those who do evil and won't turn to God, the Father of Lights, will end up separated from that light and love and all that is good. I think that will be the "torture". They will know they hated God who loves them and continued being evil to people and will have no one to blame but themselves.

13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1

So you just plainly believe that there are people who are good and people who are evil.

But if hell is simply just separation from God, is that really hell for those who hate Him?

Unless you are saying that God is everything that is good... but at the same time, he only seems to dwell in people who are saved anyway, so even then, being absent (as he would be anyway for an unbeliever) would that really change anything?

 

[Shermana]

Amen to that. According to Ephesians 2:8-9, we are saved by grace through faith alone.

James says the exact opposite, and Ephesians is near unanimously considered to not be written by Paul.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

So you just plainly believe that there are people who are good and people who are evil.

But if hell is simply just separation from God, is that really hell for those who hate Him?

Unless you are saying that God is everything that is good... but at the same time, he only seems to dwell in people who are saved anyway, so even then, being absent (as he would be anyway for an unbeliever) would that really change anything?

I believe that people who hate God will be sorry when they are punished in hell.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

James says the exact opposite, and Ephesians is near unanimously considered to not be written by Paul.

Pardon me, but you are twisting the Bible.

 

[javajo]

So you just plainly believe that there are people who are good and people who are evil.

Well, I believe we all have sinned. Some of us have just admitted it and accepted the free gift of salvation, whereas others continue being evil to others.

But if hell is simply just separation from God, is that really hell for those who hate Him?

I think when they see what they are going to miss out on, yeah. I also believe there will be different degrees of punishment depending on what they did. Jesus said it would be 'more tolerable' for Sodom and Gomorrah than for some of the cities that would not hear his disciples.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

Are We Justified by Faith and Works? I would ask the people who think that we are saved by works to read this article. Thank you and God bless.

 

[javajo]

James says the exact opposite, and Ephesians is near unanimously considered to not be written by Paul.

From: Ephesians 2:8-9 Commentary

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]“Faith alone justifies but not the faith which is alone”

[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman,Times]True faith will issue in good works. Now not necessarily seen by you or me, but there must be good works.[/FONT]

 

[Jeneshisu]

Well, I believe we all have sinned. Some of us have just admitted it and accepted the free gift of salvation, whereas others continue being evil to others.

I think when they see what they are going to miss out on, yeah. I also believe there will be different degrees of punishment depending on what they did. Jesus said it would be 'more tolerable' for Sodom and Gomorrah than for some of the cities that would not hear his disciples.

How does one continue to be evil to others? There are other virtuous paths (and those that do a much better job concerning love and kindness and good deeds) without belief in the abrahamic god or christ. Would you consider these persons continuing to be evil to others because they don't acknowledge your god..?

Sorry that this is off topic, but my questions are sincere. =\

 

[Awoon]

James says the exact opposite, and Ephesians is near unanimously considered to not be written by Paul.

Stand in front of a truck coming at you on the freeway.

"Saved by grace" the truck will not hit you.

"Saved by works" you'll jump out of the way of the oncoming truck.:yes:

 

[Shermana]

From: Ephesians 2:8-9 Commentary

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times]“Faith alone justifies but not the faith which is alone”

[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman,Times]True faith will issue in good works. Now not necessarily seen by you or me, but there must be good works.[/FONT]

And again, under this definition what are works that are EXCLUSIVE to "Faith-saved" Christians? Other than "Sharing the Gospel", what kinds of works are the "result" rather than the "Method" that are particular to the "Saved" that the Unsaved won't do?

 

[javajo]

How does one continue to be evil to others? There are other virtuous paths (and those that do a much better job concerning love and kindness and good deeds) without belief in the abrahamic god or christ. Would you consider these persons continuing to be evil to others because they don't acknowledge your god..?

Sorry that this is off topic, but my questions are sincere. =\

That's ok. I can't judge what is in the heart of others. Someone who commits awful acts against others is in a different category to me than someone who is seeking to do good and to practice love and kindness. I believe God is so merciful in that he gives us grace, getting what we don't deserve, and mercy, not getting what we do deserve. He is full of mercy and grace and love and patience, more so than I think we could comprehend.

Having said that, I believe grace is a one-way deal, from God to us. Whereas in other religions, and much of what goes for Christianity, people try to make it a two way deal, we do a little, God does a little. But I don't believe we can earn or help earn our salvation through any self-righteousness or good works we might do, but it can only be accepted as a totally undeserved, free gift, so no man can boast. I believe this because I believe we have all sinned, we have all done wrong, we're human, we are not Holy God. But the Bible says if we break one law, we are guilty of all, since one sin is all it takes, and the penalty of sin is death. Why that is, I don't pretend to understand completely, but it is what has been revealed in the Bible. So, Christ paid the penalty by dying and offers salvation to all who trust him that he did that for them, for free. That way the penalty of our sin is paid, and we are given Christ's perfect righteousness, so now we are freely justified-declared righteous by God. That is just my belief, I hope it helps you understand me a little better.