Salvation is a totally FREE GIFT: (the pearl)

[sojourner]

So do you believe that a "Saved" Christian who commits adultery is just as saved as one who doesn't? A pastor down the street at a large church got caught with another man's wife, did he just have a momentary weakness of faith which will be easily forgiven and doesn't affect his salvation?

What about a "Saved" Christian who commits murder, does he just have to say "I'm sorry Jesus forgive me" and all is done and forgiven?

Why did Ananias and Sapphira get struck down dead for defrauding the Church with false witness of the value of their home?

If Judas didn't acknowledge his sin, he must have just hanged himself for fun, not shame. He must have just decided the 30 silver pieces he earned were too heavy and gave them back for no reason.

In the Biblical context, sin is seen as systemic, not individual. As a Jew, you ought to know this! The salvation spoken of in the OT is the salvation of Israel, the nation. The gospels largely speak of sin in the same way -- it's a community thing, not an individual thing.

 

[sojourner]

The fact that the God of the Bible is frequently described doing brutally evil things doesn't make you or me or Alceste better people; it's just a matter of looking at the character of God described in the Bible and making a judgement about what sort of character he is.

A cursory, surface "look" at the character of God isn't sufficient in order to formulate an opinion with regard to God's nature.

 

[sojourner]

I would not be comfortable making excuses for anybody who tortured and killed a baby. It doesn't matter whether or not I understand his motives - the act itself is evil on its face. It's not a complicated moral question at all. Every murderer and torturer has his reasons. Pretty much none of these reasons are understandable to a normal, well-adjusted, moral human being. Nevertheless, we do not excuse murderers and torturers on the basis that we can't understand why they did what they did, or that maybe their victims are better off dead than they were alive.

Have you ever stopped to consider that the incident in question might be simply a literary construct, used in order to elicit some kind of emotional response?

 

[sojourner]

IOW, first I looked at the text with an open mind, interpreted what it was saying about the nature of god, then I concluded whether the character in the story (God) was moral or immoral based on the text I had just read.

Your interpretation isn't supported by adequate exegesis.

 

[sojourner]

Abraham was dreaming when he was told to sacrifice his son Issac.

You're grasping at very diminutive straws here.

 

[sojourner]

If salvation is behind door #3, and the pearls are behind door #1,
I'm going for door #1. Clearly.

.... unless of course there's a new car behind door #2.....

I think god must be Monty Hall.

Question of the day: Whatever happened to Carol Merrill???

 

[sojourner]

It's about whether salvation, as presented in the OP, is a "free gift" or not. If the price of eternal life is aligning yourself with an evil God, then it has a significant moral cost... and therefore wouldn't be "free".

It has been determined that God is good. The feeble arguments of skeptics based upon cursory readings of the texts without adequate exegetical and theological work is just ******* in the wind. God is good.

 

[sojourner]

So might makes right?

No. Divinity makes right.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

No. Divinity makes right.

What's the difference?

 

[javajo]

While I believe Jesus paid for all the sin of all the world once and for all time. I also believe that each individual must decide to trust him personally for that to become efficacious. I believe God so loved us he gave his Son that whoever believes in Him will have eternal life. I believe each person must choose to accept the free gift or reject it. For those who accept it, they are freely and completely justified (declared righteous) by God. Their sins are paid for and they are forgiven, and have Christ's righteousness imputed unto them in place of their own 'filthy rags' righteousness. This is all because of grace (unmerited favor) through faith. As it says, And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness. That is just my own belief. Thought I'd share.

 

[Awoon]

You're grasping at very diminutive straws here.

Jonah was a dream story also.

AHHHH HA HA HA LOL LOL

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well, for one thing, if a person is a creation and God is the Creator it stands to reason that God would have all the facts and more information about any given situation than the finite person with limited knowledge.

So it's that God is really smart - that's what gives him moral authority?

If God's so far above us, it stands to reason that his viewpoint and priorities are going to be very different from ours. Why, then, would we automatically say that God's morality is relevant to us? I mean, do you know what would be moral or immoral for a plankton? Does your morality even make sense in that context?

 

[javajo]

While some people conclude that God is evil, and I respect them and won't argue the point, from my studies and reading of the whole Bible, and my experience, I believe that God is full of love for us, full of mercy, grace, patience, and compassion. That all good things come from Him. I believe he is righteous, pure, holy, fair, and just. I believe all the bad things in this world are a result of our sin which brought forth death to all creation. I believe the Bible when it says, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16). I may not understand why it had to be that way, but I accept Christ's revelation to us that if we believe in him we have eternal life. That's just my belief, I know others see it different. I understand that, I won't argue about it.

 

[sojourner]

So it's that God is really smart - that's what gives him moral authority?

If God's so far above us, it stands to reason that his viewpoint and priorities are going to be very different from ours. Why, then, would we automatically say that God's morality is relevant to us? I mean, do you know what would be moral or immoral for a plankton? Does your morality even make sense in that context?

You're creating a red herring here. The relationship between plankton and humanity is far, far different than the relationship between God and humanity. Humany has a relationship of love with God.

Since morality is the practice of "doing the right thing," and if this is God's world and, hence, God's rules, I'd have to say that God determines the morals and the priorities. We act in a moral manner when we live into God's expectations.

 

[sojourner]

Jonah was a dream story also.

AHHHH HA HA HA LOL LOL

You, of course, realize that Jonah has nothing to do with Genesis, other than the fact that they're both included in the Bible?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

While some people conclude that God is evil, and I respect them and won't argue the point, from my studies and reading of the whole Bible, and my experience, I believe that God is full of love for us, full of mercy, grace, patience, and compassion. That all good things come from Him. I believe he is righteous, pure, holy, fair, and just. I believe all the bad things in this world are a result of our sin which brought forth death to all creation.

But where did sin come from? If everything can be traced back to God, then so can the bad things. And if there are things in this universe that can't be traced back to God, then who or what do they trace back to?

I believe the Bible when it says, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16). I may not understand why it had to be that way, but I accept Christ's revelation to us that if we believe in him we have eternal life.

See... given the larger context of the Bible, I read that quote somewhat differently: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son to satisfy the curse that God visited upon the world.

It doesn't seem so loving when we remember that God, as perfect sovereign, would have perfect responsibility for everything that happens, including the "debt of sin" he decided to save us from.

If the God of the Bible is real, then he only gave us the solution after saddling us with the problem.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You're creating a red herring here. The relationship between plankton and humanity is far, far different than the relationship between God and humanity. Humany has a relationship of love with God.

So?

If you or I loved plankton, would this mean we could understand what it is like to be plankton?

Since morality is the practice of "doing the right thing," and if this is God's world and, hence, God's rules, I'd have to say that God determines the morals and the priorities. We act in a moral manner when we live into God's expectations.

Ah - the Divine Command theory of morality... IOW, argument for no real morality at all.

In your formultion, what makes God's expectations "the right thing"?

 

[javajo]

But where did sin come from? If everything can be traced back to God, then so can the bad things. And if there are things in this universe that can't be traced back to God, then who or what do they trace back to?

It came from God giving us freedom to do what we wanted. Mankind chose to do evil to one another.

See... given the larger context of the Bible, I read that quote somewhat differently: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son to satisfy the curse that God visited upon the world.

It doesn't seem so loving when we remember that God, as perfect sovereign, would have perfect responsibility for everything that happens, including the "debt of sin" he decided to save us from.

If the God of the Bible is real, then he only gave us the solution after saddling us with the problem.

Again, humans decided to do wrong to each other, not God. God just did all he could to save us.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It came from God giving us freedom to do what we wanted. Mankind chose to do evil to one another.

But we can only choose between available options. No matter how much I choose to kill someone with my thoughts, it's not going to happen.

And the outcome of God's decision would have been foreseeable to God, wouldn't it? If he made his decision to give us freedom knowing what would happen, then he's responsible for what did happen. He could've chosen to prevent it, but he decided not to.

Again, humans decided to do wrong to each other, not God. God just did all he could to save us.

If an all-powerful God did "all he could", then it would be done, period. I didn't think you were a universalist.

 

[javajo]

But we can only choose between available options. No matter how much I choose to kill someone with my thoughts, it's not going to happen.

And the outcome of God's decision would have been foreseeable to God, wouldn't it? If he made his decision to give us freedom knowing what would happen, then he's responsible for what did happen. He could've chosen to prevent it, but he decided not to.


If an all-powerful God did "all he could", then it would be done, period. I didn't think you were a universalist.

No, I'm not a Universalist. I don't believe that when we stand before God, we will be able to say its his fault we did wrong. God did not want robots, he gave us free will and people decided to do evil to others. God did not make anyone kill or rape, etc. anyone, they decided to do that themselves. But believe what you want about God, I won't argue about it.