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Salvation is a totally FREE GIFT: (the pearl)

javajo

javajo

Well-Known Member
Alceste and 9-10th Penguin I won't argue with you, I gotta go anyway. I understand your point of view and admire your hatred of evil.
 
Alceste

Alceste

Vagabond
9-10ths_Penguin said:
In that story, even if God knew that he'd intervene before Isaac was killed, it still describes some rather nasty psychological torture of Abraham.

The story reminds me of Sophie's Choice.
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Agreed. It doesn't matter whether the child dies or not, or whether it all worked out for the best in the end. The fact remains that telling somebody to murder their own child as some kind of loyalty litmus test is wrong. How do you pass or fail a test like that? You kill your child and god goes "YOU FAIL! I DIDN'T REALLY MEAN IT!" or you don't kill him and god goes "YOU FAIL! YOU DON'T OBEY MY COMMANDS!"

Or it was all a fevered dream, in which case one must wonder about your true, inner feelings about this god you worship.
 
blackout

blackout

Violet.
If salvation is behind door #3, and the pearls are behind door #1,
I'm going for door #1. Clearly.

70s-Doors.jpg

.... unless of course there's a new car behind door #2.....

I think god must be Monty Hall.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
InChrist said:
Is this thread about whether Jesus is God or whether God is good or evil?
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It's about whether salvation, as presented in the OP, is a "free gift" or not. If the price of eternal life is aligning yourself with an evil God, then it has a significant moral cost... and therefore wouldn't be "free".
 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
9-10ths_Penguin said:
It's about whether salvation, as presented in the OP, is a "free gift" or not. If the price of eternal life is aligning yourself with an evil God, then it has a significant moral cost... and therefore wouldn't be "free".
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So if God is the Creator of heaven and earth and a person is a created being, who has the moral authority to determine good or evil?
 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
9-10ths_Penguin said:
I don't follow. What does being a creator or creation have to do with "moral authority"?
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Well, for one thing, if a person is a creation and God is the Creator it stands to reason that God would have all the facts and more information about any given situation than the finite person with limited knowledge.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Alceste said:
The price for the "free" gift of salvation is that I have to believe myself to be a worthless sinner in need of salvation, that price is too high. I believe people, including me, are mostly good and desire to do good, and DO good to the best of their ability at any given time. That POV deeply influences how I feel about the world and my fellow humans. I do not want to live in a world where I view most people as unworthy of mercy and compassion (most people, after all, are not Christians). It's a horrific picture, and I don't understand how Christians can bear it - except perhaps by fooling themselves about the persuasiveness of their doctrine.
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It comes about through imperialist and colonial thinking. Had the church remained a fringe movement, instead of becoming the state religion, the theological development would have been much different.

Personally, I don't think there is a price for salvation. Humanity as a whole has been reconciled to God. We are not "worthless sinners," but we do stand outside Divinity. That may be thought of as "arguing semantics," but I think it's an important theological distinction.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Alceste said:
I see no evidence of a "perfect standard" anywhere, let alone the biblical account of god's behavior. What kind of troll god commands his follower to murder his own child?
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You're arguing a metaphor as if it were an actual, historical occurrence. That completely skews any logical argument.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Alceste said:
IOW, I can not concede the existence of the problem of "sin" without a pre-existing conception of what an evil act is. Which I fortunately possess, like almost everyone. The god of the bible commits many, many evil acts, when measured against my own innate desire to minimize suffering (something we all share), are much worse than anything I could dream of. IOW, humanity is more moral than God. Therefore to "measure up" to your god's standards, most of us would need to become worse than we are.
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The problem is that "sin" isn't defined as "an evil act." It's defined as "separation from God." Sin is a state of being, not an action. An action may indicate a state of sin, but it isn't the sin, itself.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
waitasec said:
no he didn't

mark 14:42
"Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”

looks like he chose to flee from paying everyones penalty
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You're reading that passage wrong. The biggest problem is, you know it! Why do you conflate things that need not be conflated?
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Alceste said:
IOW, I can not concede the existence of the problem of "sin" without a pre-existing conception of what an evil act is. Which I fortunately possess, like almost everyone. The god of the bible commits many, many evil acts, when measured against my own innate desire to minimize suffering (something we all share), are much worse than anything I could dream of. IOW, humanity is more moral than God. Therefore to "measure up" to your god's standards, most of us would need to become worse than we are.
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When you talk about "the God of the Bible committing ... evil acts," you realize, of course that you're not only dealing with a whole lot of metaphor rather than actual incidents, but also with a cultural perspective, world view, and mind set that is completely foreign to your own. What we view as an "evil act" was viewed by the ancient Hebrews as one of salvation. the story has worth because of its historical record, not its moral teaching. In other words, the real message here is "God saves," not "God murders." That's the problem of reading through our cultural lens.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I'm just using my noggin, here, and a little bit of reading comprehension.
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Don't kid yourself. You're using a very little bit of "reading comprehension," if all you're going to engage is a superficial reading of the words on the page, without proper exegesis to understand the message through the static of cultural and linguistic barriers.
 
Shermana

Shermana

Heretic
sojourner said:
The problem is that "sin" isn't defined as "an evil act." It's defined as "separation from God." Sin is a state of being, not an action. An action may indicate a state of sin, but it isn't the sin, itself.
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If sin is not an action, how do you interpret the phrase "Your sins"
 
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