waitasec
Veteran Member
but he didn't choose to...
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Salvation is a totally FREE GIFT: (the pearl)
- Thread starter javajo
- Start date
but he didn't choose to...
InChrist
Free4ever
Are you saying that because Jesus announced and pointed out that Judas would betray Him that Christ did not choose to pay for Judas' sin(s)?
no-body
Well-Known Member
What does "paid for the sins of the world" even mean? Especially if individuals can keep on sinning? Why does sin need to be paid for and who made up the rule? If it's God, then he has got a pretty sweet deal there killing himself for himself to gain eternal power and obedience. Sign me up, I'd be willing to "martyr" myself for the world too if it gained me that much power and immortality.
Alceste
Vagabond
You've not been reading the same bible I've been reading then. In the one I read, he commands genocide, child sex slavery, infanticide, war and capital punishment for trifling transgressions. I'm just using my noggin, here, and a little bit of reading comprehension. The god of Christianity doesn't seem to develop a scrap of basic human decency until he tries being a human himself. (Although, after he "dies" his judjment reverts back to being morally questionable, if we are to believe he chose Paul to speak for him). All of which lead me to believe that humans are better positioned than the Christian god to be moral.
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waitasec
Veteran Member
not just judas' but everyone sins...
how then did judas betray him if he chose to pay for our sins?
If you're basing your belief on the scriptures, then somewhere in your thought process must be a judgement on your part that the author of them is trustworthy. You can't get away from it: if you hold an opinion about God, then you have judged God.
waitasec
Veteran Member
InChrist
Free4ever
I think it is natural for sinful humans to want to elevate themselves above God and think we know more or are morally superior than He is, but I believe that perspective is what the Bible calls foolish. Your idea or my idea of what we may consider trifling transgressions I think is quite different from Gods idea that all sins are wicked. They are no small thing which He will ignore or let slide. Throughout history when a nation has become depraved and immersed in wickedness He has let or caused it be conquered by another nation, but He has always been patient preferring to show mercy giving plenty of warning and time for a nation or the people to repent and change their ways before destruction comes upon them. You can condemn God, but are you sure you understand the entire situation or have all the information as He does from His eternal perspective as the Creator?
P.S. The Bible does not condone slavery as we think of slavery today where people are forcibly taken against their will and made to be slaves. This is condemned in the Bible and anyone doing this was to be executed.
"He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death." ( Exodus 21:16)
InChrist
Free4ever
I will concede that I do have the opinion that God is trustworthy and in that sense I am making a judgment. I suppose a more accurate word is condemn. I should have said, I am only sorry you feel you are in a position to condemn the Creator of heaven and earth.
InChrist
Free4ever
Lets say you owe debts totaling the amount of $100,000 (your sins) and someone who cares about you sets up an account to pay your debts (sins). There also are funds in this account for others who this person cares about and desires to help. You receive a notice to let you know your signature is required to acknowledge you have debts totaling$100,000 and to accept and receive that amount to be transferred to your own personal account. If you ignore or forget about the notice, then although the money is available it wont do you and good. Your debts will remain unpaid and you will face the consequences when the creditors come after you.
The payment to cover everyones sins has been made all sins, past, present, and future, but each person must acknowledge the sins they are guilty of and accept Gods provision of payment by Christ. Judas didnt. He didnt even acknowledge his sin, but persisted in accumulating more debt.
Shermana
Heretic
So do you believe that a "Saved" Christian who commits adultery is just as saved as one who doesn't? A pastor down the street at a large church got caught with another man's wife, did he just have a momentary weakness of faith which will be easily forgiven and doesn't affect his salvation?
What about a "Saved" Christian who commits murder, does he just have to say "I'm sorry Jesus forgive me" and all is done and forgiven?
Why did Ananias and Sapphira get struck down dead for defrauding the Church with false witness of the value of their home?
If Judas didn't acknowledge his sin, he must have just hanged himself for fun, not shame. He must have just decided the 30 silver pieces he earned were too heavy and gave them back for no reason.
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javajo
Well-Known Member
I believe God is good, holy, pure and just. He made us and gave us freedom to do what we want. Only people began treating each other so badly, murdering, raping, enslaving, stealing from and taking advantage of others, and on and on that the Bible says:
5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD...Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. Genesis 6
I imagine people decided to be so terrible to one another that God saw it and wanted to end the suffering and evil, as you or I would, too. I think of children on a playground. They are free to play and enjoy the equipment, but they begin fighting and bullying one another. A parent then must step in to stop them. Apparently only one child on the playground was being nice.
5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD...Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. Genesis 6
I imagine people decided to be so terrible to one another that God saw it and wanted to end the suffering and evil, as you or I would, too. I think of children on a playground. They are free to play and enjoy the equipment, but they begin fighting and bullying one another. A parent then must step in to stop them. Apparently only one child on the playground was being nice.
no-body
Well-Known Member
Not only is the person with more sins equally forgiven, they are preferred over the innocent by God since they will be more grateful to God. Read the parable of the creditor. Jesus loved sinners and was chastised for eating openly with them "for I require mercy and not sacrifice"
InChrist
Free4ever
King David committed adultery and murder. I believe he was saved for eternity because he showed sincere remorse and acknowledged his sin, yet he still faced negative consequences of his sin for the rest of his life on earth. I am not in a position to know the heart and mind of the pastor caught in adultery. If he continues on in his sin with no remorse then I would question whether he was ever saved or committed his life to Christ.
I believe it is highly unlikely that a saved Christian who is living under the guidance of the Holy Spirit would ever commit murder. But let's say one does take their eyes off the Lord and for a time lives in the flesh committing sins, including murder. If that person is truly sorry and confesses their sin to God they will be forgiven and can still have eternal life. This is a biblical truth; If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9
Nevertheless, the punishment for the crime whether prison or the death penalty must still be met in this life.
I believe the scriptures say that Ananias and Sapphira were struck because they lied to the Holy Spirit. Again, only God knows their hearts and whether they were actually saved or were pretending to be Christians, but God definitely made an example out of them to the early church concerning the danger of lying to the Holy Spirit.
I don't believe Judas showed remorse toward God for the sin of betraying Jesus Christ. He did feel sorry for himself and committed suicide. There is a difference.
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Shermana
Heretic
What did he feel sorry for himself for? That he only got 30 pieces of silver? Yeah He couldn't have possibly killed himself because of the remorse that it specifically says he felt, he had to have "felt sorry for himself". Do you know what feeling sorry for yourself means? Was he upset with himself that he hadn't turned Jesus in sooner or something?
Hmmm, this doesn't reveal that you haven't actually read the passage or anything, nope.
David couldn't have committed adultery if the husband was dead. You don't know if his soul went to Heaven or hell. If the person has to confess for their sins, thats' a "work". Paul even says that one must show their repentance with deeds. Thus, a "Christian" who sins and breaks the law risks losing their salvation. The very meaning of the word "Saved" is vastly misunderstood. The reference is to individual punishments for the individual actions.
*Edit: This is incorrect and I am guilty of not reviewing the passage myself. David does in fact commit adultery.
Why did Jesus tell his own followers who believed in him that it's better to chop off your hand than have it scandalize you and cause you go into the fire?
David went through horrible situations like illnesses and civil war against his sons as his atonement.
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Alceste
Vagabond
Have you ever commanded somebody over whom you were in a position of power and authority to murder his own son in order to prove his loyalty and obedience to you?
If not, you are a better person than the god of the Bible. Only terribly uncomfortable mental contortions could possibly prevent you from reaching that conclusion yourself. Subjecting myself to a mind that is cluttered by such acrobatics is too high a price to pay for salvation. I prefer my thoughts lucid, rational and clear as a running stream. I prefer my ethics undiluted by making outrageous exceptions for entities in a position of authority.
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I think you misunderstand Alceste's argument. There was nothing in it about excusing human action, or any "tu quoque" argument that if God's bad, this makes it okay to be bad, too. What she talked about were harmful or downright evil things that the Bible describes God as doing.
The fact that the God of the Bible is frequently described doing brutally evil things doesn't make you or me or Alceste better people; it's just a matter of looking at the character of God described in the Bible and making a judgement about what sort of character he is.
I can be sure that if Christianity's got any truth in it at all, then I have a moral sense that's worth at least half a damn. Otherwise, if we're all so morally inept that we can't tell right from wrong, then this would undermine a major fundamental principle in Christianity: that our judgement is sound enough that it is just to hold us responsible for our actions.
But just as a test: do you think that torturing babies is wrong? Here are your choices:
- Yes, torturing babies is wrong.
- No, torturing babies is not wrong.
- I can't say whether torturing babies is wrong or not, because I don't have God's wisdom.
Which one do you choose?
Baloney. You would have us believe that the slavery of the Bible is some pleasant, mutually beneficial arrangement of indentured servitude, but this just isn't true. Mosaic Law had a fair bit of protection for Jewish slaves (though even "nice" slavery is still immoral, IMO), but very little for foreign slaves.
It also speaks in positive terms about women civilians captured in war being forced to be sex slaves and allows for masters to beat their slaves to death, with the only caveat being that they can't die right away: as long as he takes a few days to die, administering a fatal beating to your slave is A-OK by God... if we would believe the Bible.
javajo
Well-Known Member
David committed adultery with Uriah's wife, Bathsheba and she became pregnant. He called Uriah from the battlefield (where David should have been), got him drunk so he would sleep with her, but Uriah refused to sleep with his wife while he had men on the battlefield, so David sent a message to have the men pull back in battle and leave Uriah to be killed by the enemy. Then he married Bathsheba. He was so convicted and distraught with himself he called upon the Lord to forgive him and to restore, not his salvation, but the joy of his salvation in Psalm 51. He did not lose his salvation, although he did suffer the consequences of his actions for years to come. I have an acquaintance who believes in the Lord. Many years ago, in his youth he sinned by drinking (he was drunk) and driving. He wrecked and lost half a leg and has a big metal piece up his forearm and other damage to his head and ears and whatnot. He admitted he sinned and believes in the Lord and he is saved, however, he will go through life without that leg.
If one can see that salvation is an event, where we see we are sinners and trust in Christ to have paid for those sins and offers salvation freely, at that moment we who were dead in sin are made alive in Him. There may have been a process that lead up to that event, and there is a process of sanctification after that event, but receiving the free gift of salvation by grace through faith in Christ is a one time event.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. Rev. 21:6
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Rev. 22:17
Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, Isaiah 49:8a (notice he saves and keeps/preserves)
(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) 2 Cor. 6:2
and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. Acts 2:41b
If one can see that salvation is an event, where we see we are sinners and trust in Christ to have paid for those sins and offers salvation freely, at that moment we who were dead in sin are made alive in Him. There may have been a process that lead up to that event, and there is a process of sanctification after that event, but receiving the free gift of salvation by grace through faith in Christ is a one time event.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. Rev. 21:6
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Rev. 22:17
Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, Isaiah 49:8a (notice he saves and keeps/preserves)
(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) 2 Cor. 6:2
and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. Acts 2:41b
Shermana
Heretic
I am guilty of my own accusation of not checking the passage, David sleeps with Bathsheba before having Uriah sent to the front lines. That is adultery. I erred. Either way, we don't know if David went to heaven or hell. He was about to be struck dead and assumingly sent to hell.
Now if you insist that the free gift of Salvation is a one-time event, can a "Saved" Christian go commit adultery and murder and theft unrepentantly or not? If he must repent, apparently there's a condition that you must admit.
If you use Isaiah 49:8 as your example, I'd check the context first. What about all the people who don't get preserved? Who is it talking about specifically who gets preserved in that passage?
Now if you insist that the free gift of Salvation is a one-time event, can a "Saved" Christian go commit adultery and murder and theft unrepentantly or not? If he must repent, apparently there's a condition that you must admit.
If you use Isaiah 49:8 as your example, I'd check the context first. What about all the people who don't get preserved? Who is it talking about specifically who gets preserved in that passage?
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