Salvation is a totally FREE GIFT: (the pearl)

[javajo]

So let's say that when I was 15, I was a Christian. God was my entire life up until that point when I realized all the terrible things that the religion advocated and all the terrible things that God did in the Bible. And at that moment, I left the religion, never to look back and still feel just as strongly about it 6 years later, I hope you are not trying to say that I am still "saved".

Unless you're one of those types that just believes that said person was never saved to begin with... because I already stated how I felt about that.

Yes, I believe you are still 100% saved. For you to abhor things you see as evil is a very good indicator of that fact.

 

[Jeneshisu]

It doesn't matter what we think. What do you think?

I think that if I die, and I'm stuck in "heaven", I will be very upset.

 

[javajo]

I am sincerely interested in learning your perspective on this javajo. If the wages of sin are death (i.e. hell for all eternity), then should not Jesus have to suffer in hell for all eternity?

No. For one he was sinless, we are not. For another he, being infinite only needed to suffer a finite amount of time, whereas we are finite and must therefore suffer an infinite amount of time.

 

[javajo]

I think that if I die, and I'm stuck in "heaven", I will be very upset.

I understand.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, I believe you are still 100% saved. For you to abhor things you see as evil is a very good indicator of that fact.

I abhor the mainstream Christian notion of atonement and view it as evil.* Where does that leave me?




*longer version for clarity: I think any god who would create a plan of salvation that works that way would have to be evil unless he had no other choice, but this wouldn't be the case for an omnipotent, omniscient god.

 

[javajo]

... unless the way in which you "go astray" is losing your faith. Then you're out on your ear, right?

No. One step of true, saving faith or completely trusting Jesus and what he did for us saves us forever. We will all have doubts and lack faith at times. God promises that he not only saves us, but he keeps us. He does the saving and the keeping and will never cast away anyone who comes to him.

 

[javajo]

I abhor the mainstream Christian notion of atonement and view it as evil.* Where does that leave me?

*longer version for clarity: I think any god who would create a plan of salvation that works that way would have to be evil unless he had no other choice, but this wouldn't be the case for an omnipotent, omniscient god.

Have you ever trusted completely in Christ's work on the cross to save you? If you have, you are forever saved. If not, then you are not.

It does sound rather strange, the plan and the whole sacrifice for sins, eh? But, lets say you were God ...You made humans. They have the ability to do whatever they want. But they murder, rape, torture, oppress, etc. each other and only do really bad to each other all the time. Does that mean you invented sin? Of course not, you just gave them freedom. But now you have a problem of how to fix it. Just as you did not invent sin, you did not invent the consequences that result from that sin, misery, horror, death...But you love the people and want to help them, so you find that since the wages of sin is death, you die for the people you love thus opening a door for any who wish, to be saved. The wicked will still be wicked, but those who see their own wickedness and feel bad about it will call on you and be freely saved. It could just be that way. Just like God is just, which is good, so he must deal with sin justly. It may be just the way it is. Who are we to know. His ways and thoughts are higher than ours, as Paul says in Romans 11:

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Have you ever trusted completely in Christ's work on the cross to save you? If you have, you are forever saved. If not, then you are not.

Can't say I have, so it seems I'm snookered.

It does sound rather strange, the plan and the whole sacrifice for sins, eh? But, lets say you were God ...You made humans. They have the ability to do whatever they want. But they murder, rape, torture, oppress, etc. each other and only do really bad to each other all the time. Does that mean you invented sin? Of course not, you just gave them freedom.

It'd mean that you were responsible for freedom. If you know what humanity is going to do and create them anyhow, then you carry the responsibility for everything foreseeable that follows. And for an omniscient god, everything would be foreseeable.

Imagine you had a really violent pit bull. One day, you open up the gate to the yard and let him out. He runs free in the neighbourhood and kills a kid. Are you responsible? After all, all you did was "give it its freedom".

But now you have a problem of how to fix it. Just as you did not invent sin, you did not invent the consequences that result from that sin, misery, horror, death...But you love the people and want to help them, so you find that since the wages of sin is death, you die for the people you love thus opening a door for any who wish, to be saved. The wicked will still be wicked, but those who see their own wickedness and feel bad about it will call on you and be freely saved. It could just be that way. Just like God is just, which is good, so he must deal with sin justly. It may be just the way it is. Who are we to know.

Punishing the only truly innocent person in existence for the crimes of all humanity is the antithesis of justice. Yes, I realize that we're fallible human beings, but we're also not idiots. This is "is it healthy to drink battery acid"-level decision-making. If we can't identify that this is morally wrong, then our moral sense is complete and utter garbage.

His ways and thoughts are higher than ours, as Paul says in Romans 11:

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

You realize that to anyone who doesn't already believe that your god exists, this sounds like a complete cop-out, right?

 

[javajo]

Just something to think about.

 

[Darkness]

No. For one he was sinless, we are not. For another he, being infinite only needed to suffer a finite amount of time, whereas we are finite and must therefore suffer an infinite amount of time.

Uh, shouldn't it be the other way around? Since our sins are finite, we should only have to suffer a finite amount of time. Being He is infinite and His actions are eternal, shouldn't he have to suffer for all eternity?

 

[InChrist]

Uh, shouldn't it be the other way around? Since our sins are finite, we should only have to suffer a finite amount of time. Being He is infinite and His actions are eternal, shouldn't he have to suffer for all eternity?

This is an interesting question which I have given some thought to before. I don’t know the complete answer, but I think the reason Christ does not suffer eternally in the way a human being does is because He is so much greater than a lost sinful person who rejects God. I believe Jesus is fully human and fully God. Christ did not choose to be separated from God His Father, for the sake of rejecting Him, as humans choose to reject God. Instead, Christ chose to endure separation from His Father to pay the penalty of every person’s sin. Because the Son is an eternal being and because He lived the perfect human life Himself, He was able to bear God’s eternal punishment for the sins of the world in the three dark hours on the cross, as His Father turned His back on the sins of the world which Jesus bore. We can only see the cross and Christ’s suffering from our limited time frame, but those three hours were as an eternity of agonizing separation between the Father and Son who had always existed in a loving relationship as One. Since Jesus had no sin in Himself He was able to meet the demands of justice, pay the penalty and be reunited with His Father. This just gives me more of a realization that only God in the person of Jesus Christ was capable of being the Savior.



I think there is a misunderstanding about eternal torment. At least, I see it somewhat differently than the way a lot of people seem to talk about it. I believe when the scriptures speak of eternal life it means living forever with God the Creator and eternal damnation is living forever separated from God. If God the Creator is the source of life and all that is good: light, love, joy, peace, beauty then separation will be dark, lonely and tormenting.

I believe the scriptures show God’s love and are clear that He does not desire to see anyone perish or suffer eternal torment. Sadly, many reject their Creator and source of life and choose to be separated from Him and live alone with themselves forever.

 

[Alceste]

The price for the "free" gift of salvation is that I have to believe myself to be a worthless sinner in need of salvation, that price is too high. I believe people, including me, are mostly good and desire to do good, and DO good to the best of their ability at any given time. That POV deeply influences how I feel about the world and my fellow humans. I do not want to live in a world where I view most people as unworthy of mercy and compassion (most people, after all, are not Christians). It's a horrific picture, and I don't understand how Christians can bear it - except perhaps by fooling themselves about the persuasiveness of their doctrine.

 

[InChrist]

The price for the "free" gift of salvation is that I have to believe myself to be a worthless sinner in need of salvation, that price is too high. I believe people, including me, are mostly good and desire to do good, and DO good to the best of their ability at any given time. That POV deeply influences how I feel about the world and my fellow humans. I do not want to live in a world where I view most people as unworthy of mercy and compassion (most people, after all, are not Christians). It's a horrific picture, and I don't understand how Christians can bear it - except perhaps by fooling themselves about the persuasiveness of their doctrine.

I think that admitting one is a sinner is only reality, if one is honest about themselves. It seems to me the way we make ourselves feel as if we are good is by comparing ourselves to others who do worse things we do ourselves, rather than God's perfect standard. Believing you are worthless is something else, which I think is a lie from Satan who hates God and His creation. Clearly, humanity is important, not worthless to God and He has gone to great lengths to extend mercy and compassion for all.

 

[Alceste]

I think that admitting one is a sinner is only reality, if one is honest about themselves. It seems to me the way we make ourselves feel as if we are good is by comparing ourselves to others who do worse things we do ourselves, rather than God's perfect standard. Believing you are worthless is something else, which I think is a lie from Satan who hates God and His creation. Clearly, humanity is important, not worthless to God and He has gone to great lengths to extend mercy and compassion for all.

I see no evidence of a "perfect standard" anywhere, let alone the biblical account of god's behavior. What kind of troll god commands his follower to murder his own child?

 

[Alceste]

IOW, I can not concede the existence of the problem of "sin" without a pre-existing conception of what an evil act is. Which I fortunately possess, like almost everyone. The god of the bible commits many, many evil acts, when measured against my own innate desire to minimize suffering (something we all share), are much worse than anything I could dream of. IOW, humanity is more moral than God. Therefore to "measure up" to your god's standards, most of us would need to become worse than we are.

 

[InChrist]

IOW, I can not concede the existence of the problem of "sin" without a pre-existing conception of what an evil act is. Which I fortunately possess, like almost everyone. The god of the bible commits many, many evil acts, when measured against my own innate desire to minimize suffering (something we all share), are much worse than anything I could dream of. IOW, humanity is more moral than God. Therefore to "measure up" to your god's standards, most of us would need to become worse than we are.

You are entitled to your perspective. I am only sorry you feel you are in a position to judge the Creator of heaven and earth.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You are entitled to your perspective. I am only sorry you feel you are in a position to judge the Creator of heaven and earth.

You just did the exact same thing! It's just that you judged this creator positively. "God is a troll" is no more judging than "God is perfect".

 

[waitasec]

Instead, Christ chose to endure separation from His Father to pay the penalty of every person’s sin.

no he didn't

mark 14:42
"Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”

looks like he chose to flee from paying everyones penalty

 

[InChrist]

You just did the exact same thing! It's just that you judged this creator positively. "God is a troll" is no more judging than "God is perfect".

No, I am not judging, I am believing the scriptures which say God is loving, holy, wise, patient, merciful, compassionate, and good. Therefore, I do not set myself up (a creation) to the place of judgment upon the Creator who has more wisdom and understanding from His perspective than I do from my perspective.

 

[InChrist]

no he didn't

mark 14:42
"Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”

looks like he chose to flee from paying everyones penalty

I believe the scriptures indicate that on the cross Jesus Christ paid for the sins of the world, which would include all sins. They do not say that individuals are prevented from committing sins.