Salvation is a totally FREE GIFT: (the pearl)

[Shermana]

The one who tries to make Jesus say something other than "Work hard to enter the Kingdom" MAY in fact be the one twisting it. I suppose if I said that Jesus meant you literally have to be more righteous than the Pharisees, you'd think I was twisting Matthew 5:20 too.

So when Jesus says "Work hard to enter the Kingdom" he meant "No you don't have to work, you get in for free just by claiming to believe in me!" And when James talks about work-less faith he asks "Can such faith save"? I guess he meant something else there too! We can't just go by what they say, we have to apply it to some off-scripture doctrine first!

What kind of works are exclusive to a saved Christian that an Atheist and Buddhist wouldn't do, and why does James say Salvation THROUGH works?
Please get into detail of what kinds of works a Saved person will do, specifically. Give Charity? Or is just "Talking about Jesus" that you consider to be the fruit? Please give some examples of the works a Saved Christian will do that are exclusive to Saved Christians so we can be on the look out to know who is saved.

 

[javajo]

The one who tries to make Jesus say something other than "Work hard to enter the Kingdom" MAY in fact be the one twisting it. I suppose if I said that Jesus meant you literally have to be more righteous than the Pharisees, you'd think I was twisting Matthew 5:20 too.

So when Jesus says "Work hard to enter the Kingdom" he meant "No you don't have to work, you get in for free just by claiming to believe in me!" And when James talks about work-less faith he asks "Can such faith save"? I guess he meant something else there too! We can't just go by what they say, we have to apply it to some off-scripture doctrine first!

What kind of works are exclusive to a saved Christian that an Atheist and Buddhist wouldn't do, and why does James say Salvation THROUGH works?
Please get into detail of what kinds of works a Saved person will do, specifically. Give Charity? Or is just "Talking about Jesus" that you consider to be the fruit? Please give some examples of the works a Saved Christian will do that are exclusive to Saved Christians so we can be on the look out to know who is saved.

Heh. Hi! I am getting offline soon. OK. Jesus was talking about the Kingdom, not salvation. James says we show men that we are saved when they see our good works. Because a freely saved person will somewhere, somehow, sometime bear fruit. Salvation is free by faith, works are a result. That is the clear teaching of scripture. No flesh may glory in his presence and no man may boast that he earned salvation by his works. Christ should and will get all the glory. Like I said, Christ is the donor, we are the recipient. Salvation comes from God to man. Adding works flips the direction and grace is no longer purely grace.

 

[Shermana]

As expected, no response to the "What works are specific to saved Christians", every single time. It's amazing how often this pattern happens with Christians.

1. "Works are the fruit of a Saved Christian"

2. So, what kind of works specifically?

3.:run:

 

[elmarna]

If the "works are not true to the heart you have it is empty in it's significants.
To call on a concept of compassion & go through the motions with no compasion in your heart is likely that the true covenent with god you have not carried within you: just looked upon it & see it as a good thing!
Salvation is not bought,,thought, or managed. It is in the state of being where you will find it!

 

[Shermana]

Jesus is the "Guilt Offering" spoken of in Isaiah 53 for the Temple Sacrifice "the one whom they pierced" in Zechariah 12:10, until he returns to reign over the 3rd Temple age. "Salvation" from "Sin" and the "Curse of the Law" (the effect of breaking it) in 2nd Temple Judaic terms generally is totally misunderstood. It's not about a one time heaven or hell, there is in fact a sort of "purgatory" implied. It says in Revelation "The dead were judged according to their deeds". Yashua implies that "Few" will enter be saved, and that's why one must "Work hard to enter the Kingdom". Salvation and the kingdom are connected, if you want to enter the Kingdom, you must "Strive (Work hard) to enter through the narrow gate", the path to destruction is broad.

Is repentance not a "Work"? When one repents, why do they do it? Why obey any of the Laws to begin with if you're saved as long as you claim to believe?
The idea that you merely have to have to claim that Jesus is Lord is not the "faith" that saves, says James. Even the "Faith" that Paul describes with Abraham being ready to sacrifice Isaac was till a work, that was the point when Paul said that works without faith is void.

Works without faith will not save, and faith without works is dead, one must have a sacrifice to be redeemed of their sins, and faith in Yashua as the Guilt Offering of Isaiah 53 is the Faith that is necessary to truly repent, as well as believing in everything Yashua taught, with regard to scholarly concerns of what was originally written or added like John 7:53-8:11.

 

[javajo]

As expected, no response to the "What works are specific to saved Christians", every single time. It's amazing how often this pattern happens with Christians.

1. "Works are the fruit of a Saved Christian"

2. So, what kind of works specifically?

3.:run:

When u ask a lot of questions, they aren't all gonna get an answer every time. What are Biblical fruits? First, developing Christian character is fruit. Every trait we develop that is Christlike is fruit. There are the nine fruits of the Spirit described in Galatians 5:22-23, and Peter urges the development of seven accompaniments to faith so we may be fruitful in 2 Peter 1:5-8. Two of these are common to both lists, love and self-control. The others are joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, virtue, knowledge, endurance, piety, and brotherly love. Second, right character will result in right conduct, and as we lead a life of good works we produce fruit (Col 1:10). Third, those who come to Christ through our witness are fruit. Fourth, praise to God from our lips is fruit (Hebrews 13:15). Fifth, we bear fruit when we give money. (Philippians 4:17). Through pruning and abiding we will produce even more fruit. There is even more I could say about fruit. The main thing is that our good works and fruit-bearing are all a result of our salvation and our growing in grace.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us...That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life...they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works...Titus 3:5-8a

 

[elmarna]

SACRAFICE IS A FALSEHOOD!
did not Abraham teach you this when he responded to the very policies of it!
I can agree with most of what you say. Not that.
Not in Phoronic or modern terms.
If you believe in sacrafice you are led astray!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Me Myself]

Yes, it does seem strange that salvation is billed as a "free gift", yet you must believe in it in order to receive it. It's like one of those cereal box offers: Free! *with proof of purchase of 10 boxes of Cheerios.

And whoever heard of forgiveness requiring acceptance of forgiveness by the forgiven?

I am sorry. I am getting rather cynical in this thread.

In some cases, people can commit enough evil to cover millions of lifetimes.

Jesus never said that he will only forgive those who beleive in him.

Jesus forgave those who spitted on him on his walk to the cross "Forgive them father, because they don´t know what they are doing"

Conclusion: Jesus doesn´t need you to beleive in him to forgive your sins.

 

[javajo]

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3

 

[Shermana]

When u ask a lot of questions, they aren't all gonna get an answer every time. What are Biblical fruits? First, developing Christian character is fruit. Every trait we develop that is Christlike is fruit. There are the nine fruits of the Spirit described in Galatians 5:22-23, and Peter urges the development of seven accompaniments to faith so we may be fruitful in 2 Peter 1:5-8. Two of these are common to both lists, love and self-control. The others are joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, virtue, knowledge, endurance, piety, and brotherly love. Second, right character will result in right conduct, and as we lead a life of good works we produce fruit (Col 1:10). Third, those who come to Christ through our witness are fruit. Fourth, praise to God from our lips is fruit (Hebrews 13:15). Fifth, we bear fruit when we give money. (Philippians 4:17). Through pruning and abiding we will produce even more fruit. There is even more I could say about fruit. The main thing is that our good works and fruit-bearing are all a result of our salvation and our growing in grace.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us...That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life...they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works...Titus 3:5-8a

What kind of "Good Christian Character" is a Good Christian exactly? So apparently "Works" is all about developing "Good character". Apparently you think such behavior is completely exclusive to Christians. Let the reader decide if "Praise to God" is exclusive to Christians.

PS Titus is also Pseudipigrapha, so even if you don't believe it was written it was 100 AD.+, I do, and most scholars do. Even Conservatives. So is Ephesians.

Romans 2:13 and Galatians 3:12 are clear, you have to follow the Law to be justified, but it is Faith in Christ as the Sacrifice which serves as the temporary "Replacement" for the Temple. The process hasn't changed, the Sacrifice has. Apparently your view allows anyone to do whatever they want and still get saved, and your idea of "Christian character" remains vague. Does this mean that a Christian who commits adultery didn't have good Christian behavior? Does this mean he is not saved? What is the point of repenting of sin in the first place?

So when James says "Can such Faith save", what kind of faith is he talking about? What is 1 John 3:4-10 talking about? What does 1 John 5:3 mean?

The reader should note how the Worksless Christians base their doctrines entirely on the works that are almost unanimously considered Spurious, and ignore James completely. Just ignore the part about "Saved THROUGH works". He really meant to say "Saved...and with Works as a fruit of the result" by "Saved THROUGH works". I guess when he said "Can such faith save" he was talking about something other than work-less faith, what was he talking about specifically? Basically, exactly as I sarcastically summarized, your idea of works is "Talking about Jesus".

 

[Shermana]

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3

The word "believe" should be regarded as "Obey". If it were as simple as just believing, you could be a Gnostic. What is the point of obedience if all you have to do is "believe"? Why listen to any other word in the entire bible if all you need is that one passage to base your "Believe in Jesus = Salvation" doctrine on?

Your idea that "Praising G-d" is the exclusive fruit of "saved" Christians is a flat out insult to Jews and Muslims. How are they able to Praise if they are not saved? Otherwise, retract your claim that such is an exclusive fruit of the saved.

As I said, your idea of "works" is merely "Talking about Jesus"

 

[javajo]

What kind of "Good Christian Character" is a Good Christian exactly? So apparently "Works" is all about developing "Good character". Apparently you think such behavior is completely exclusive to Christians. Let the reader decide if "Praise to God" is exclusive to Christians.

PS Titus is also Pseudipigrapha, so even if you don't believe it was written it was 100 AD.+, I do, and most scholars do. Even Conservatives. So is Ephesians.

Romans 2:13 and Galatians 3:12 are clear, you have to follow the Law to be justified, but it is Faith in Christ as the Sacrifice which serves as the temporary "Replacement" for the Temple. The process hasn't changed, the Sacrifice has. Apparently your view allows anyone to do whatever they want and still get saved, and your idea of "Christian character" remains vague. Does this mean that a Christian who commits adultery didn't have good Christian behavior? Does this mean he is not saved?

So when James says "Can such Faith save", what kind of faith is he talking about?

The reader should note how the Worksless Christians base their doctrines entirely on the works that are almost unanimously considered Spurious, and ignore James completely. Just ignore the part about "Saved THROUGH works". He really meant to say "Saved...and with Works as a fruit of the result" by "Saved THROUGH works". I guess when he said "Can such faith save" he was talking about something other than work-less faith, what was he talking about specifically? Basically, exactly as I sarcastically summarized, your idea of works is "Talking about Jesus".

In James it says a man will SAY he has faith, but we see no works, which should be a result of salvation if he has truly believed in Christ to be saved. So, we say I will show you my faith by my works. If a man has no works, he has not been saved. If a man has works we know he has been saved. We may not see his works or fruits or character in all or any areas of his life. He may surrender one area over to God, but not all or not all areas all the time, etc. But whether we see it or not, there will be fruit and growth and works, again as a result of salvation and the Holy Spirit's correction and guidance and their willingness to submit to God. You sound like you don't believe all of the Bible. Is that true? Are there some NT books you don't believe? Anyway, its not by works of righteousness that we have done, they are a result, not a cause of salvation, an evidence that we were freely saved by faith in what Christ has done. That is my belief. If you believe different, that's fine. Lets not argue about it.

 

[javajo]

The word "believe" should be regarded as "Obey". If it were as simple as just believing, you could be a Gnostic. What is the point of obedience if all you have to do is "believe"? Why listen to any other word in the entire bible if all you need is that one passage to base your "Believe in Jesus = Salvation" doctrine on?

Its not just one passage. The whole book of John repeats over and over that if we believe in Jesus we have eternal life. It means to rely on, cling to, believe he paid for our sins. Every time he says if we believe we have eternal life, there is nothing added to it. Gnostic do not believe in the Physical Incarnation or Resurrection of Jesus so that won't work. The point of obedience is that after we are freely saved, we grow and bear fruit when we are obedient to God, not to get saved, but because we are saved and want to please him.

Your idea that "Praising G-d" is the exclusive fruit of "saved" Christians is a flat out insult to Jews and Muslims. How are they able to Praise if they are not saved? Otherwise, retract your claim that such is an exclusive fruit of the saved.

I don't believe it is exclusive to Christians. I believe Jews praise God as well, while Muslims praise Allah, which is another matter. I am saying that Hebrews 13:15 says praise is a fruit: By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

As I said, your idea of "works" is merely "Talking about Jesus"

No, works is way more than that to me.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Been away for a while, probably be away again. Just a quick comment. I understand salvation is from Jesus to us. We are the recipients of undeserved favor, or grace apart from any good works we may achieve. So salvation is received, not achieved. Keep the direction clear, from Jesus to us, and the grace untainted by anything we may wish to add to it, and give all the glory to Christ who died for us, as no flesh may glory in his presence.

So... getting to Heaven isn't a matter of taking the wide, easy path OR the narrow, difficult path, but actually no path at all? It sounds like you're saying that we don't have to go anywhere - He'll come to us. How does this square up with what Jesus taught?

 

[Muffled]

Hi! I wasn't sure where to put this and I thought maybe people of all faiths would enjoy sharing any thoughts or insights (or objections or whatnot) that come to mind so I put it here. Its a "christian" story, about the idea of salvation being a free gift, however it is just for sharing purposes only, I'm not trying to convert anyone or preach or anything like that. I just like the story and wanted to share it, no proselytizing intended here, please!

Okay. So, there's this story of a christian missionary who became a good friend of an Indian pearl diver...Having discussed salvation for many hours, the Hindu could not believe it could be a free gift. He thought perhaps it could come from walking the nine hundred miles to Delhi on his knees. But the missionary said he believed salvation was so costly that Jesus had to buy it for us.
Before leaving on his pilgrimage, the Indian gave the missionary the largest and most perfect pearl he had ever seen. He explained that his own son had lost his life in getting this pearl from the bottom of the sea. The missionary thanked him, but then insisted that he pay for it. The Hindu was very offended, saying that there was no price that could be paid for a pearl that had cost him his only son whom he loved.
Then and there it dawned on him that that is why (most) Christians insist that no one can pay for salvation. They believe it cost God the death of his only Son and that to think we can pay for it is an insult indeed. That although grace is free to us it was very costly to God.

Here are a couple Bible verses that some Christians believe teach that salvation is free to us but costly to God:

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold...But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Peter 1:18-19

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

Thanks, and I hope you enjoyed the story!

[loosely copied from "How You Can Be Sure That You Will Spend Eternity with God", by Erwin W. Lutzer]

Freedom is never free as the Lybians are finding out as they have to fight hard for it and as my ancesters found out when they had to fight for independance from England.

Even the recipients who don't have to pay the cost of soldiers find out that freedom requires responsibility. When I was in jail most of my decisions wee made for me by my jailers. When to eat, sleep, exercise were the main things. When free I have to decide when to eat sleep and exercise. An alcoholic in jail is free from alcoholism because he just can't get any there. A smoker is free from smoking because smoking isn't allowed there.

 

[Muffled]

So... getting to Heaven isn't a matter of taking the wide, easy path OR the narrow, difficult path, but actually no path at all? It sounds like you're saying that we don't have to go anywhere - He'll come to us. How does this square up with what Jesus taught?

Actually quite well. in John 14 He talks about it although there may be a double entendre with The Kingdom of God and Heaven. However the concept is that wherever he is we will be there also and as Paul put it nothing can separate us.

 

[Muffled]

If Christ died for all, but only those who "calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved", then it would seem that his "sacrifice" is something less than completely efficacious.

BTW - if it's "free", then why all that talk in the Bible about the believer's yoke and burden being light? "Light" does not equal "weightless"; "low cost" does not equal "no cost".

Edit: and that's all if we take the story at face value. For me at least, accepting the salvation arrangement you suggest would mean giving up my moral sense and my rationality, among other things. That's quite a heavy price... definitely not "free", IMO.

There is no doubt there is a cost. A person will have to give up sin and there are many who don't want that. Also a person has to give up freedom. When we make Jesus Lord we become bondslaves to him.

Definitely. The ego just loves to make up its own rules and run its own life. However I have not had to give up rationality because God can work through that. It just becomes his rationality not mine.

 

[waitasec]

There is no doubt there is a cost. A person will have to give up sin and there are many who don't want that. Also a person has to give up freedom. When we make Jesus Lord we become bondslaves to him.

what does that mean...?

A person will have to give up sin and there are many who don't want that

it's as if you are saying people would have to stop wanting to make mistakes...

 

[sojourner]

A sacrifice suggests a loss. What did god lose, exactly?

God's humanity.

 

[Me Myself]

God's humanity.

....is that supposed to be uffle?