Salvation is a totally FREE GIFT: (the pearl)

[javajo]

Whatever goes unatoned for on Earth you will suffer for as a spirit in the realm known as "Sheol".

I see. I believe Christ's death atoned for all my sins and that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in Heaven.

Notice that he compares adultery to murder, two capital punishment crimes. The word "All of it" is actually Panton which means "The entire thing". If you steal a candy bar in the US criminal justice system, you are just as much of a criminal as the axe murderer, just with different sentences. Same thing with the Torah. But an axe murderer and a rapist may have the same sentence.

Okay, but to me it means if you are guilty of the tiniest little sin, you have broken the Law, you are guilty of all.

What do you think of what James says about correcting your brothers to "Cover over a great deal of your own sins"? What's this now? You have to worry about "covering over your sins?"

I believe it means if we convert someone and they are saved it will hide a multitude of sins. Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. When one is saved, all their sins are paid for and forgotten, removed as far as the east from the west, as in the bottom of the sea, never to be brought up again as far as salvation is concerned.

...and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea. Micah 7:19b

And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. Acts 13:39

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Colossians 2:13

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. Titus 2:14

...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

All means all.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's one of my favorite verses, and who are the ones who are rejected?

The doers of LAWLESSNESS.

Evildoers, actually, going by the translations I'm familiar with.

And I sure wouldn't say that the law presented in the Bible is anything close to synonymous with good.

 

[Shermana]

Now try 1 John 3.....

 

[Shermana]

Evildoers, actually, going by the translations I'm familiar with.

And I sure wouldn't say that the law presented in the Bible is anything close to synonymous with good.

I think the use of "doers of iniquity" and "evildoers" is deliberately done by translators to avoid the actual context, the word is "Anomian", which means "Those against the Law". This is not to say that those who are Lawless aren't committing evil and iniquity, but the actual word is Anomian, and "evildoers" is more of a sub-definition.

 

[zenzero]

Friend javajo,

I don't feel for myself, that my mind told me I was separated from God. Rather I believe God revealed it to me by the preaching of His Word. I believe the Bible is God's Word and that is where I get my beliefs from. Anyway, I believe I am at one with God now, so I'm good.

You state that God revealed to you through Jesus then why not through you or me??
What separates Jesus from others that others cannot be sons of God like Jesus??
Love & rgds

 

[Katzpur]

Hi, I think I am caught up in too many conversations tonight. I'm gonna be .too brief but I just believe Jesus paid the penalty of our sins which is death by dying on the cross and if we trust him that he did then we are freely saved. (saved from having to pay the penalty ourselves).

Okay, thanks. Well, I believe that we're free from having to pay the penalty ourselves as long as we repent and make a sincere effort not to repeat our sins. I don't know what your take is on that, but I know a lot of people who believe in sola fide say that it really doesn't matter how a person lives his life, that if he believes in Christ, his sins are all covered. I don't believe that myself, and I don't believe that's what is meant by a "free gift."

 

[javajo]

Friend javajo,


You state that God revealed to you through Jesus then why not through you or me??
What separates Jesus from others that others cannot be sons of God like Jesus??
Love & rgds

Not through Jesus, I said through the preaching of the inspired Word of God is how I believe people get saved.

13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! Romans 10

Yes, I believe they do become sons of God.

1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3

Jesus was, I believe, the sinless Son of God who bore our sins so we may have the gift of eternal life through Him.

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

What I believe and am trying to convey somewhat poorly, and I am not addressing 'growth' issues here, but salvation. Is most religions teach a salvation earned by what WE do, that it is our goodness, our merits, our works, our service and morality that somehow earn salvation. But salvation is not something we could ever earn because nobody could be good enough to meet God's holiness. I believe there is a spiritual law that all have sinned and the penalty for sin is death. Out of love for us, God provided the way to reconcile us to him and still be just toward sin. Christ paid the penalty, he came here and died so all who believe in him may have eternal life for free. It makes it so that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, no matter what they have done.

Then what is the incentive for Christians to be good? This tells me that Christianity is not a very good source of morality. Other religions require you to do good to attain salvation. Christianity says" Here you go kids, its salvation! It is a free gift! Just believe in my god though!".
btw, gifts are by definition free. just something I personally find irksome when people need to say " it is a free gift".

 

[Skwim]

Then what is the incentive for Christians to be good? This tells me that Christianity is not a very good source of morality. Other religions require you to do good to attain salvation. Christianity says" Here you go kids, its salvation! It is a free gift! Just believe in my god though!".
btw, gifts are by definition free. just something I personally find irksome when people need to say " it is a free gift".

The old "salvation by faith or works" debate no less.

 

[javajo]

Okay, thanks. Well, I believe that we're free from having to pay the penalty ourselves as long as we repent and make a sincere effort not to repeat our sins. I don't know what your take is on that, but I know a lot of people who believe in sola fide say that it really doesn't matter how a person lives his life, that if he believes in Christ, his sins are all covered. I don't believe that myself, and I don't believe that's what is meant by a "free gift."

I think it matters greatly how a person lives their life once they have trusted Christ. Not so much for their salvation, for it is a free gift as the Bible says, but because of it, as a result of it. If someone has truly trusted Christ and the Holy Spirit has taken up residence in them, as God corrects all who come to him, they should begin to change and produce some fruit. We may see it or we may not, but every Christian will grow somewhat if they are in Christ. I was saved at a very young age so all my really bad sins were ahead of me, so its a subject I have studied to a great degree. Like I said, it does matter how a Christian lives their life. Sin and disobedience always bring bad things into a Christian's life. Things like misery, doubt, correction, sickness, strife, death, premature death, loss of reward and position, their witness, their ability to serve God to their full capabilities, and etc. As far as salvation goes, I don't believe we can 'do' one thing to add to it, because then it is wages earned and no longer a free gift of grace. Romans 4 says this:

Abraham's Faith Made Him Right With God

1 What should we say about those things? What did our father Abraham discover about being right with God? 2 Did he become right with God because of something he did? If so, he could brag about it. But he couldn't brag to God. 3 What do we find in Scripture? It says, "Abraham believed God. God accepted Abraham's faith, and so his faith made him right with God."—(Genesis 15:6) 4 When a man works, his pay is not considered a gift. It is owed to him. 5 But things are different with God. He makes evil people right with himself. If people trust in him, their faith is accepted even though they do not work. Their faith makes them right with God.
6 King David says the same thing. He tells us how blessed some people are. God makes those people right with himself. But they don't have to do anything in return. David says,

7 "Blessed are those
whose lawless acts are forgiven.
Blessed are those
whose sins are taken away.
8 Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord never counts against him." —(Psalm 32:1,2)

Of course at a later time, after he was justified before God by his faith, Abraham proved himself to be justified before men by his obedience, which came as a result of his salvation which was by faith. So we are saved by grace through faith, good works can and should follow and if they don't, well only God knows if the person has truly placed their faith in Christ or not. And most of the time, we should see the believer bear fruit of some sort. That's my belief as well as I can express it briefly.

 

[Katzpur]

That's my belief as well as I can express it briefly.

Thanks. You actually did a very good job.

 

[zenzero]

Friend javajo,

We are all born sinless and so sons of God;
then where did sin appear from??
Its all in the MIND, your thoughts and deeds follow the mind and one who stills it is

Love & rgds

 

[Shermana]

Sin is "Lawlessness", according to 1 John 3, sin arises from the mind, but it also arises out of ignorance of what "sin" is as well as its effect, as long as one does not know the concept of purity and defilement they will be in a state of ignorance which leads them to more suffering. "Salvation" is the breaking of the "Karma" which requires one to suffer as long as they "truly believe" which involves full repentance and works. The "Faith" that Paul speaks about Abraham was nonetheless a work, a test of faith. James clearly says that "Faith without works is dead", thus one is not truly "saved" through their "Faith" without works, since James clearly says it is "THROUGH" works that one has faith. Thus, to achieve "Karmic balance", one must do good works and obey the Law so they do not sin and bring further stain to their soul.

 

[Desert Snake]

Sin is "Lawlessness", according to 1 John 3, sin arises from the mind, but it also arises out of ignorance of what "sin" is as well as its effect, as long as one does not know the concept of purity and defilement they will be in a state of ignorance which leads them to more suffering. "Salvation" is the breaking of the "Karma" which requires one to suffer as long as they "truly believe" which involves full repentance and works. The "Faith" that Paul speaks about Abraham was nonetheless a work, a test of faith. James clearly says that "Faith without works is dead", thus one is not truly "saved" through their "Faith" without works, since James clearly says it is "THROUGH" works that one has faith. Thus, to achieve "Karmic balance", one must do good works and obey the Law so they do not sin and bring further stain to their soul.

Do you actually follow all of the laws? How many are there?

 

[Shermana]

Do you actually follow all of the laws? How many are there?

My consistency has nothing to do with what the ideal is, but I believe every single law is necessary including the wearing of Tekhelet Fringes and Tefelin, whether I am consistent or not, the fact does not change. The Rabbis say there are 613 laws but many of those are repeats and vague interpretations of certain passages, if you want an exact count you have to read it for yourself.

 

[javajo]

Been away for a while, probably be away again. Just a quick comment. I understand salvation is from Jesus to us. We are the recipients of undeserved favor, or grace apart from any good works we may achieve. So salvation is received, not achieved. Keep the direction clear, from Jesus to us, and the grace untainted by anything we may wish to add to it, and give all the glory to Christ who died for us, as no flesh may glory in his presence. For one who has accepted the free gift of salvation, works and fruit-bearing can and will follow as a result only, somehow, sometime, some more, some less, some visible, some not, in some areas and not in others sometimes, etc.

 

[Shermana]

"Work hard to enter the Kingdom"....

 

[javajo]

"Work hard to enter the Kingdom"....

Good luck with that.

 

[Shermana]

Good luck with that.

It's so interesting how Christians ignore Christ's very words to suit their doctrines.

 

[javajo]

It's so interesting how Christians ignore Christ's very words to suit their doctrines.

And how others twist his words to suit theirs. He was speaking to Jews and he offered him the kingdom but they rejected the Messiah. It wasn't so bad, though, blindness had happened to them in part so salvation could come to the Gentiles as well as the Jews. The Epistles clearly show that we are saved by faith apart from works and those who have entered into his rest by belief have ceased from their works for salvation. Salvation is free. Works follow as a result.