Salvation

[Rainbow Mage]

I have never been able to grasp the idea of salvation by faith, and you're saved now. That makes no sense. You are supposed to be saved so you can make it into heaven. How can you know that you're saved if you haven't made it yet?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Wishful thinking doesn't need to make sense.

 

[fallingblood]

By faith? I think you answered your question. If it is salvation by faith then one knows they are saved because of that faith.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I have never been able to grasp the idea of salvation by faith, and you're saved now. That makes no sense. You are supposed to be saved so you can make it into heaven. How can you know that you're saved if you haven't made it yet?

I would agree, However to argue with such believers is not even fun.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

By faith? I think you answered your question. If it is salvation by faith then one knows they are saved because of that faith.

Yeah but does just believing they have salvation gurantee they have it?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Yeah but does just believing they have salvation gurantee they have it?

As salvation is an imaginary idea one holds about themself or not, then yes, believing you have it makes you have it.

 

[fallingblood]

Yeah but does just believing they have salvation gurantee they have it?

No. Just because you believe in a god, doesn't guarantee it. That is what faith is for.

 

[Green Kepi]

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life". 1 John 5:13

 

[logician]

I have never been able to grasp the idea of salvation by faith, and you're saved now. That makes no sense. You are supposed to be saved so you can make it into heaven. How can you know that you're saved if you haven't made it yet?

Hey, I was "saved" at least 3 times in my youth, and now I'm an atheist. I think it's just propaganda.

 

[jmvizanko]

I have never been able to grasp the idea of salvation by faith, and you're saved now. That makes no sense. You are supposed to be saved so you can make it into heaven. How can you know that you're saved if you haven't made it yet?

Its also interesting to note that there is no need for faith for salvation in Judaism, based on the same books from the "old" testament that Christians believe form the foundation of their religion. In fact, there is no need to be saved from anything. Original sin and salvation by faith are entirely Christian constructions. Which is interesting, because you would think that if these were the two most important things for people to understand about there souls and final destinations, they would be believed in by Jews as well and be found in the "old" testament. But alas, they are not.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Its also interesting to note that there is no need for faith for salvation in Judaism, based on the same books from the "old" testament that Christians believe form the foundation of their religion. In fact, there is no need to be saved from anything. Original sin and salvation by faith are entirely Christian constructions. Which is interesting, because you would think that if these were the two most important things for people to understand about there souls and final destinations, they would be believed in by Jews as well and be found in the "old" testament. But alas, they are not.

Since we are all imperfect we all fall short and sin either on purpose or by mistake.
If we do not want to sin, then don't we need to be saved from sin?
Since we all die, don't we need to be saved from death or dying?

Adam did not have a soul. Adam became a living soul or person according to Genesis 2v7. All sinning souls die according to Ezekiel 18v4,20.

Final destinations:
If we are not resurrected from death then death is our final destination.
If we are resurrected from death then living is our final destination.
Living or being alive either in heaven or upon earth.

Any not resurrected or destroyed at the time of Jesus' glory' will not gain everlasting life, but everlasting death in the form of destruction.
[Isaiah 11v4; Rev 19vs11,14,15; Psalm 92v7; Matt 25vs31,32,46]

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I have never been able to grasp the idea of salvation by faith, and you're saved now. That makes no sense. You are supposed to be saved so you can make it into heaven. How can you know that you're saved if you haven't made it yet?

According to Jesus teachings [Matt 24v13] The one who endures to the end is the one that is saved.

So, one 'faithfully endures' either to the end of his life, or 'faithfully endures' until the time of Jesus 'glory'.

The separated sheep-like ones of Matt chap 25 are saved or delivered alive into the start of Jesus millennial reign over earth. They can remain alive and keep on living on earth. So, not all have a heavenly hope but an earthly hope of living forever on a paradisaic earth either by being one of those sheep-like ones or resurrected ones. -[Acts 24v15]

This would be in fulfillment to the promise to Abraham that all families of the earth will be blessed and all nations of the earth will be blessed.
-Gen 12v3; 22vs17,18.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yeah but does just believing they have salvation gurantee they have it?

Hebrews 6 vs4-6 can help answer your question.
Paul wrote it is impossible for those who were enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift.....if they should fall away, to renew them again to repentance.

Chapter 10 Paul mentions [36-39] about those that 'draw back' God has no pleasure in such a one. Even Paul was concerned about being a castaway or to die disapproved by God.
see 1 Cor 9v27.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

It is very difficult to interpret Abrahamic religions as the concept of a STILL MIND is not there. Abrahamic religions are totally MIND dependent is the personal understanding.
Dharmic religions explain the concept by getting each individual to meditate and on meditation the individual gets his own experience and after which he understands and then follows the PATH/WAY on his own accord as once anyone drinks that nectar of LIFE he is connected, he becomes a flow and then on he loses his *self* or *EGO* and flows along with life.

Love & rgds

 

[URAVIP2ME]

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life". 1 John 5:13

....and doesn't the 'believing' part require remaining faithful and obedient to God?
What happens to those who practice sin willfully after coming to an accurate knowledge of Bible truth according to Hebrews 10v26?

 

[doppelganger]

I have never been able to grasp the idea of salvation by faith, and you're saved now. That makes no sense. You are supposed to be saved so you can make it into heaven. How can you know that you're saved if you haven't made it yet?

Just saying it makes it so. That's "faith." Capiche? It's even easier if you delegate the whole project - pick someone else or some group of people who just says it and then you adopt the view that whatever that person or group says, it is so.

It could be anything. As long as you profess to know it for sure and know it your heart to be true, then "salvation" is measured by whatever criteria one adopts. Could be a special diet. Could be saying a special prayer. It could be going regularly to listen to lectures at a special place. It could even be cutting your own genitals off and then later committing suicide while wearing Nike sneakers so you can meet Jesus behind the Comet Hale-Bopp. Were those people "saved"? Who knows? Such is "faith," baby. Just say it with passion and sincerity.

 

[jmvizanko]

If we do not want to sin, then don't we need to be saved from sin? Since we all die, don't we need to be saved from death or dying?

If we do not want to sin, then we don't need to be saved from sinning, we need to try our best not to sin. What good is it to know that one can sin all they want, but because they have a get out of jail free card, they will be fine in the end? That isn't salvation from sinning, its an excuse to sin, and nobody who believes in whatever will be able to fully stop sinning anyway. The only difference between a believer and an unbeliever is the belief in the content of a few sentences. They are both still sinners.

All sinning souls die according to Ezekiel 18v4,20

They both say "the person who sins, only he shall die." They don't follow it up with "unless they believe in such and such."

Any not resurrected or destroyed at the time of Jesus' glory' will not gain everlasting life, but everlasting death in the form of destruction.
[Isaiah 11v4; Psalm 92v7; Matt 25vs31,32,46]

Isaiah 11v4 simply states "he shall...slay the wicked with the breath of his lips." Of course, what is meant by slay is not really laid out, so you can interpret it to mean whatever you want.

Psalm 92v7 simply states "though all evildoers blossom, it is only that they may be destroyed forever." How is this not just a suggestion that evil people will get what's coming to them, and instead a suggestion about the afterlife? Very open to interpretation, once again.

I don't care what Rev 19vs11,14,15; and Matt 25vs31 have to say, for the point of my argument, because they are in the new testament.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Hey, I was "saved" at least 3 times in my youth, and now I'm an atheist. I think it's just propaganda.

....Is being an atheist just propaganda?

How about being 'saved' where righteousness dwells according to God's promise given at 2nd Peter 3v13?

In our time frame of these last days of badness on earth [2Tim3vs1-5,13]
Jesus shows these last days of badness will be cut short.
Jesus says a great tribulation is coming.-Matt 24v21
This is also at the time of the 'war of the great day' of God the Almighty.
-Rev 16vs14,16.
This time Jesus will act not as a preacher or teacher, but as King of God's Kingdom and to vindicate God's sovereignty over earth as the best way of governing in everlasting Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.
Jesus eliminates God's enemies and preserves alive his 'saved' ones of Matthew 25v32. Isaiah 11v4; Rev 19vs11,14,15.
They have been saved alive from destruction right into the start of Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth. In order to be saved or delivered at this time we need to do the same as those of Philippians [2v12] and work out our salvation with fear and trembling doing such spiritual work as Jesus foretold at Matthew 24v14 before the end comes of all badness on earth.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If we do not want to sin, then we don't need to be saved from sinning, we need to try our best not to sin. What good is it to know that one can sin all they want, but because they have a get out of jail free card, they will be fine in the end? That isn't salvation from sinning, its an excuse to sin, and nobody who believes in whatever will be able to fully stop sinning anyway. The only difference between a believer and an unbeliever is the belief in the content of a few sentences. They are both still sinners.
They both say "the person who sins, only he shall die." They don't follow it up with "unless they believe in such and such."
Isaiah 11v4 simply states "he shall...slay the wicked with the breath of his lips." Of course, what is meant by slay is not really laid out, so you can interpret it to mean whatever you want.
Psalm 92v7 simply states "though all evildoers blossom, it is only that they may be destroyed forever." How is this not just a suggestion that evil people will get what's coming to them, and instead a suggestion about the afterlife? Very open to interpretation, once again.
I don't care what Rev 19vs11,14,15; and Matt 25vs31 have to say, for the point of my argument, because they are in the new testament.

Even if we do not want to sin we still sin by mistake.
If we could stop sinning we would not die.
Adam died because he sinned.

Scripture does not teach get out of jail free card.

If Isaiah 11v4 is not laid out what about Jeremiah 25 vs 31-33?____________

Yes afterlife is open to interpretation but Abraham was clear in his mind that Isaac would have been resurrected back to him if his task had not been cut short.

In order to have an afterlife one would need to have life or live again.
Since the dead sleep the deep sleep of death
[Ecclesiastes 9v5,10; Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4; Daniel 12vs2,13]
Then only a resurrection would provide an afterlife.
Or as Daniel mentions awakening on resurrection morning.
The same resurrection day, so to speak, being reunited with Abraham and Issac, etc. to see the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham that all families of the earth will be blessed and all nations of the earth will be blessed.
-Genesis 12v3; 22vs17,18.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Such is "faith," baby. Just say it with passion and sincerity.

There is a difference between credulity [blind faith] and the faith and belief that Jesus learned and taught by logic and reasoning on Scriptures.

The religious leaders of Jesus day had passion and sincerity, but Jesus pronounced many 'woes' and his reasons for saying them at Matt 23.

So Bible faith is based on the religious truth as found in Scripture.
To establish a Bible teaching there are corresponding or parallel verses and passages to compare among all of the Bible writers found by topic or subject arrangement. Jesus often referred or quoted existing Scripture as the basis for his teachings and we can also search or research Scriptures as did the people of Acts 17v11.