Salvation

[doppelganger]

There is a difference between credulity [blind faith] and the faith and belief that Jesus learned and taught by logic and reasoning on Scriptures.

Or not.

 

[Thief]

I have never been able to grasp the idea of salvation by faith, and you're saved now. That makes no sense. You are supposed to be saved so you can make it into heaven. How can you know that you're saved if you haven't made it yet?

Let me try.....
Picture yourself going from point a to b.
I happen to be ahead of you, well out of sight.

Along the way I find numerous occasions that may cause the next fellow,
to mistake his direction, and such a mistake could be even fatal.

So, I place stones on top of each other, every so often.
It's not much of a message, but at least you know, someone else came this way.

If you heed the sign, you will get to where you are going.
If not, too bad.

Of course, there's consideration to make.
Can you trust what you follow?

 

[Misty]

Let me try.....
Picture yourself going from point a to b.
I happen to be ahead of you, well out of sight.

Along the way I find numerous occasions that may cause the next fellow,
to mistake his direction, and such a mistake could be even fatal.

So, I place stones on top of each other, every so often.
It's not much of a message, but at least you know, someone else came this way.

If you heed the sign, you will get to where you are going.
If not, too bad.

Of course, there's consideration to make.
Can you trust what you follow?

No! All belief comes out of the human mind imo, and therefore is likely to be flawed.

 

[Thief]

No! All belief comes out of the human mind imo, and therefore is likely to be flawed.

Well my last post is a discussion aimed at getting out of this world,
and having some sense of direction.
If you are not willing to trust someone else...having gone before you...
then you would prefer to wander off the known trail?...guessing which way?

You then must argue, that you trust yourself.

But that too... by your viewpoint.... would be flawed?

 

[Misty]

Well my last post is a discussion aimed at getting out of this world,
and having some sense of direction.
If you are not willing to trust someone else...having gone before you...
then you would prefer to wander off the know trail?...guessing which way?

You then must argue, that you trust yourself.

But that too... by your viewpoint.... would be flawed?

Who has gone before me? Of course my understanding is flawed, but then so it that of everyone else where matters of faith is concerned, no one knows for sure they have the answers.

 

[Green Kepi]

....and doesn't the 'believing' part require remaining faithful and obedient to God?
What happens to those who practice sin willfully after coming to an accurate knowledge of Bible truth according to Hebrews 10v26?

Yes...and to practice willfully...one loses it. It's not talking about an isolated incident or several were a Christian is trying but fails...it's talking about people who give up the whole idea of Jesus and go back to their old way of living. If we walk away from the only sacrifice that saves (Jesus), there is no other sacrifice available; is what Hebrews is talking about. Deliberate sin is defiance....

 

[Wotan]

Yes...and to practice willfully...one loses it. It's not talking about an isolated incident or several were a Christian is trying but fails...it's talking about people who give up the whole idea of Jesus and go back to their old way of living. If we walk away from the only sacrifice that saves (Jesus), there is no other sacrifice available; is what Hebrews is talking about. Deliberate sin is defiance....

Really? You sure? Sign me up.

 

[doppelganger]

Well my last post is a discussion aimed at getting out of this world,
and having some sense of direction.
If you are not willing to trust someone else...having gone before you...
then you would prefer to wander off the know trail?...guessing which way?

You then must argue, that you trust yourself.

But that too... by your viewpoint.... would be flawed?

So who should I trust? There are thousands if not millions of people who claim to know "God's" secret sauce. You don't trust most of them either. And they are every bit as sincere in their insistence on blinding themselves to the mythological meaning of their stories as you are.

Do I believe them all? Jesus wasn't even crucified in some them.

 

[Misty]

So who should I trust? There are thousands if not millions of people who claim to know "God's" secret sauce. You don't trust most of them either. And they are every bit as sincere in their insistence on blinding themselves to the mythological meaning of their stories as you are.

Do I believe them all? Jesus wasn't even crucified in some them.

"God's" secret sauce. Tomato, BBQ, Brown? Sorry to tease!

 

[Thief]

So who should I trust? There are thousands if not millions of people who claim to know "God's" secret sauce. You don't trust most of them either. And they are every bit as sincere in their insistence on blinding themselves to the mythological meaning of their stories as you are.

Do I believe them all? Jesus wasn't even crucified in some them.

You caught me...you caught the Thief.

Was it my self imposed label?...rogue theologian?
Or was it my unusual take on Genesis?, the Golden Rule?, or the book of Job?

Okay...I confess...I'm not religious.

I don't hang around congregation. Been there. Did that.
Been to the seminary putting in a bid for position. They picked some else.
Went from one kind of Christian frame to another.
So forth and so on.

Ended up on my own....sort of.

When I look up...it's too much to be an accident...too much order in the chaos.
When I look around this earth...too much order in the chaos.
Makes me wonder why the god called Chaos fell out of favor.

Some freak accidents along the way showed me that I won't stop thinking or feeling, just because I go blind, or numb, or deaf, or mute.

Life after death?...yep...it's a sure thing.
How will it go?
Having decided to go for it....I assume you will be able as well.
How will we be dealt with?...so many others gone before us....
It will be done unto us, as we did unto others.

When we stand up from the dust....the greater powers come first.
Call them anything you care to...but be polite.
Will it matter which prophet you followed?...probably not.

Will you carry a bible and all the dogma in it? the Talmud? the Koran?....no...dead men don't carry books.
But angels carry swords.
As any prophet would do...all I can do...is give fair warning.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

 

[doppelganger]

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Right. And what does that have to do with "belief in God"?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I have never been able to grasp the idea of salvation by faith, and you're saved now. That makes no sense. You are supposed to be saved so you can make it into heaven. How can you know that you're saved if you haven't made it yet?

A curious thing to me. One, why would a person seek out Christianity in the first place? I find 3 main possibilities.

1. They're born into, being indoctrinated from day one.
2. They're scared into it, by hellfire teachings.
3. They're desperate and out of choices.

Now from point one, the idea of salvation is hardly ever questioned as they believe what they have believed their whole life. They don't think like you do, and look for the faults in their beliefs.

Point two, these people are approached or bombarded with a major threat, and a TON of information, and more than likely the presenter of said information has not really investigated the info, but simply serves the propaganda as one would serve mash potatoes. Salvation may not mean much to these receivers of information, they just know and believe they are not going to hell and their sins are forgiven.

Point three, (this is the one I fell into albeit for me it was a combination of desperation and curiosity) for these people they simply did not like who they were as people, or what they were doing in life and chose to look into Christianity. Upon investigation, it becomes clear there are many takes and interpretations on Christianity, and salvation.
Now these people might end up just like those in point 1 or point 2, simply accepting hell is coming, or some simple explanation that satisfies their need for explanation.

For me, salvation means many things, and the end results of going to heaven is obviously a great aspect to it, but while we are here right now, it has other meanings.
I found myself to be not living up to a standard that I could like, love, respect. I was making choices that for whatever reason always led me to trouble and strife. I was looking for something that would explain life to me or maybe explain me to myself. I found a lot of that in Christianity. I also found a lot of that in other philosophies and works from great thinkers. However, nothing I read, aside from the bible, ever made me feel safe from myself, and that is the key to me. I never read anything that captured my inner self in such a way, that inspired me to become a new person, a better person.

So, salvation to me means more than just going to heaven, it is liberation from myself in many ways, it is showing me a human being that I can truly look upto and use as a guide in my life. That is Jesus Christ. I put all my trust into him and as a result, many of the bad parts of me have disappeared.

Sorry so lengthy...

 

[Thief]

Right. And what does that have to do with "belief in God"?

Did you actually read my previous post?

When we stand up the dust, the greater powers come first.

No Almighty? No one in charge?

Should you stand up from your dust, and there is no one in charge....
then you will be standing into chaos.
What was that about freewill?

 

[doppelganger]

Did you actually read my previous post?

Of course I did.

Should you stand up from your dust, and there is no one in charge....
then you will be standing into chaos.

Right. You will be standing in trust rather than clinging for false idols and delusions to create a mock sense of certainty. Why shouldn't Chaos be acknowledged and embraced as much as apparent order?

What was that about freewill?

What about it?

 

[Misty]

Did you actually read my previous post?

When we stand up the dust, the greater powers come first.

No Almighty? No one in charge?

Should you stand up from your dust, and there is no one in charge....
then you will be standing into chaos.
What was that about freewill?

What does any of that mean?

 

[sandandfoam]

A curious thing to me. One, why would a person seek out Christianity in the first place? I find 3 main possibilities.

1. They're born into, being indoctrinated from day one.
2. They're scared into it, by hellfire teachings.
3. They're desperate and out of choices.

I suspect there are as many reasons for seeking out Christianity as there are Christians.

Perhaps you are projecting the Christianity you reject rather than one any Christian adheres to?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I suspect there are as many reasons for seeking out Christianity as there are Christians.

Perhaps you are projecting the Christianity you reject rather than one any Christian adheres to?

Other than a 4th option of intellectual curiosity, what other reasons might there be? Divine calling perhaps?

 

[sandandfoam]

Other than a 4th option of intellectual curiosity, what other reasons might there be? Divine calling perhaps?

Speaking for myself - I see a beauty in the stories, poetry and literature that I encountered relating to all the Abrahamic faiths.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Speaking for myself - I see a beauty in the stories, poetry and literature that I encountered relating to all the Abrahamic faiths.

True, the result of exposure can be to think it is beautiful, but what compelled you to read it in the first place?

 

[doppelganger]

Like any other behavior, it is probably motivated by a complex combination of fears, desires, social pressure, psychological schism and accomanying escapism. But the three you list (I wouldn't include "intellectual curiosity" which tends not to lead to belief but away from it) are likely common factors that lead a person to take up a religious identity of any kind.