Same-sex marriage races ahead

[Nakosis]

If we got rid of marriage, how would we deal with inheritance, medical issues, tax issues, property, benefits, etc.? The religious aspect of marriage has always been more or less a veneer for the actual purpose of marriage - a legal-social contract to regulate things like inheritance and property. The "let's get rid of civil marriage" argument doesn't make any sense.

That's what you have civil unions for, for legal status.

Marriage just seems like an archaic concept to me like slavery or doctors using bleeding as a medical procedure.

 

[Nakosis]

Marriage isn't a religious ceremony. The fact that religions have set up rituals to go along with marriage no more makes it religious than the fact that pipe organs are used in churches makes a hockey game a religious service.

So what is the difference between marriage and a civil union?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So what is the difference between marriage and a civil union?

Off the top of my head:

- a civil union often provides fewer rights than a marriage.

- since the rights of a civil union vary from place to place, it can be more onerous for someone in a civil union to demonstrate that they do have a right or freedom that their union entitles them to.

- in certain countries, foreign civil unions aren't recognized but foreign marriages are.

- in some cases, divorce is handled differently between civil union and marriage (e.g. if you get married in country A and move to country B, you can generally get a divorce in country B. If you enter into a civil union in country A and move to country B, you might not be able to get a divorce from either country).

- the fact that marriages and civil unions are distinct means that even if their rights were exactly the same right now, there would be the potential to degrade civil unions without degrading marriages in the future.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

That's exactly the reason why I am for civil unions but not for gay marriages. I don't think that two men are apt to be "parents" as an infertile straight couple is.

Why? So far, all studies indicate that gay couples raising children are perfectly capable, and that children who are raised by gay parents are just as well adjusted as the children of heterosexual parents.

I am absolutely sure that two gay men can give a child all the love that they need. But it's a matter of prudence. For example...if a gay man adopts and raises a child, he doesn't have to tell them that he's gay and that he is in a relationship with the man he lives with.

Again, why? Why is that even remotely a problem? Why is that "prudent"? Why is that any more "prudent" than a heterosexual couple not telling their children that they are in a relationship?

all right, You win. from a logical point of view, I used the wrong points

Thank you.

 

[Norman]

Rhode Island just became the final state in New England's six states, and the tenth state in the U.S. to legalize same-sex marriage. Not long ago, Delaware, Maryland, and Washington State legalized it. France, and New Zealand recently legalized it. Same-sex marriage is now legal in fourteen countries. Somewhat surprisingly, same-sex marriage is also legal in the predominantly Roman Catholic countries of Spain, and Argentina.

All of this started only 24 years ago when in 1989, Denmark became the first country in the world to legalize same-sex marriage.

The argument by some people that same-sex marriage is an attempt to redefine marriage is of course ridiculous. Voting was redefined when black people, women, and native American Indians got the right to vote. Possibly better stated, voting rights did not actually redefine voting rights for everyone, only for people who did not have the right to vote. Similarly, same-sex marriage only redefines marriage for people who do not have the right to marry.

Apparently many Baptists have attempted to redefine marriage since in the U.S., the divorce rate among Baptists is higher than the divorce rate among atheists. That comes from the widely respected Barna Research Group, which is a Christian organization.

In Denmark, the divorce rate among heterosexuals is higher than the divorce rate among homosexuals.

It is quite odd for any Christian who has been divorced except in cases of adultery to criticize same-sex marriage on religious grounds since Jesus said that divorce is wrong except in cases of adultery.

Incredibly, some religious conservatives have used the argument that if gay people have the right to marry, then people should have the right to marry animals. Obviously, no rational person would make such an argument.

And, some religious conservatives claim that if gay people have the right to marry, then polygamy should also be legal. However, the issue of polygamy is different than the issue of same-sex marriage since it involves more than two people. In addition, cultural biases often differ greatly among various countries, as evidenced by the fact that polygamy has been legal in a number of countries for centuries, and with reasonable success in many cases. Obviously, culturally, and religiously, some countries are better prepared to legalize same-sex marriage, or polygamy, than other countries are.

If there are any legitimate objections to the legalization of polygamy in the U.S., surely those objections are valid whether or not same-sex marriage is valid. If so, then comparing polygamy with same-sex marriage is a red herring.

Consider the following from Wikipedia:

Same-sex marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Gay rights are the least in the red, and orange colored countries. The majority of those countries are in Africa, and the Middle East, and are predominantly Christian, or predominantly Muslim. Many of those countries have poor education, low incomes, and poor health. The average age of death in some African countries is less than 50 years of age. It might be accurate to say that gay rights are generally more likely to happen in countries with better education, income, and health. Among the relatively few red, or orange countries that are more prosperous, religious conservatism is obviously one of the main reasons, if not the primary reason, for opposition to gay people.

Some predominantly Muslim countries imprison gay people, or put them to death. In addition, in Britain, percentage wise, the most violence against gay people is by Muslims. Many Muslims disapprove of imprisoning gay people, or putting them to death, but I do not think that same-sex marriage, or civil unions, are legal in any predominantly Muslim country in the world. Even in the most liberal predominantly Muslim countries, gay people must use caution regarding what they do in public, such as avoiding kissing, or holding hands.

It is interesting to note that polygamy is legal in almost 50 countries, and most of them are African, or Muslim, who are largely the very same people who object to homosexuality the most.

In the U.S., many court cases over decades have said that we have a separation of church and state.

Consider the following from Wikipedia:



Madison was a champion of the separation of church and state. At Quotes on Religion - James Madison, there are many quotes of Madison regarding that issue.

Openly gay people are allowed to serve in the militaries of dozens of countries, including Britain, and Israel. I think that anyone who has a legal right to serve in their country's military should also have the right to get married.

Wherever same-sex marriage is legal, heterosexuals still have just as much right to get married as they always did, and the millions of heterosexuals who choose to live together without getting married still have the right to do that.

Hello Agnostic, Madison also said...[W]e have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. . . . Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, and Co. 1854), Vol. IX, p. 229, October 11, 1798.)

John Quincy Adams

Sixth President of the United States

The law given from Sinai was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code; it contained many statutes . . . of universal application-laws essential to the existence of men in society, and most of which have been enacted by every nation which ever professed any code of laws.

(Source: John Quincy Adams, Letters of John Quincy Adams, to His Son, on the Bible and Its Teachings (Auburn: James M. Alden, 1850), p. 61.)

 

[dgirl1986]

If a gay/lesbian couple want to live together, why don't they just DO it, instead of bothering to make it a "civil union" or "marriage"?
Does a CU or marriage give them financial benefits or what?
And is a marriage better than a CU in that respect?

After my mate married his girlfriend he said to me later- "Wow, I'm a lot worse off moneywise since I got hitched!", so I should imagine that'd also apply to gay couples, which brings me back to the question- why get married if you're going to be worse off financially?

I dont understand how someone with access to the internet can be so ignorant and ill informed. Living together is not the same as being united in the eyes of the law. The rights arent even remotely the same.

 

[dgirl1986]

Im too tired to read through 6 pages of posts that I have missed over the weekend but I wish to say this...

If there is something that you wonder about homosexuals or lgbt why not either find a related blog written by such a person or freaking ask a homo. Seriously.

Consider this an open invitation to send me a message and ask a question.

 

[Penumbra]

So what is the difference between marriage and a civil union?

It's similar to the difference between a white restroom and a colored restroom.

Supposedly separate but equal, yet often not equal, and an entirely unnecessary division anyway.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Incidentally, the hetero divorce rate is shocking-
"In America, 45 to 50 % of marriages end in divorce"
Divorce Statistics? - Ask Jeeves

So as a matter of interest, do gay 'civil union/marriage' couples split at the same rate?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Incidentally, the hetero divorce rate is shocking-
"In America, 45 to 50 % of marriages end in divorce"
Divorce Statistics? - Ask Jeeves

So as a matter of interest, do gay 'civil union/marriage' couples split at the same rate?

According to numbers gathered by the ONS in the UK last year, no.

"By the end of 2012, 3.2% of male and 6.1% of female civil partnerships in England and Wales had ended in dissolution."
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/vsob2...om/2012/sty-trends-in-civil-partnerships.html

I'm having difficulty finding more recent statistics, though.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

If a gay/lesbian couple want to live together, why don't they just DO it, instead of bothering to make it a "civil union" or "marriage"?

If a straight couple wants to live together, why don't they just DO it, instead of bothering to make it a "civil union" or "marriage?"

 

[Estro Felino]

If a gay/lesbian couple want to live together, why don't they just DO it, instead of bothering to make it a "civil union" or "marriage"?

Honestly... where are these gay men who want to get married?
The 90 % of gay men are promiscuous sex-obsessed people...who are afraid even of the word "relationship"...not to mention "marriage".

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

Honestly... where are these gay men who want to get married?
The 90 % of gay men are promiscuous sex-obsessed people...who are afraid even of the word "relationship"...not to mention "marriage".

Even assuming your (narrow-minded and quite prejudicial in my opinion) generalization was even true, even if 90% of gay men are promiscuous and sex-obsessed, does that mean we should turn away the 10% that aren't? What about them? I have to say, as a celibate bisexual man, I must not have gotten the memo that LGBT people are supposed to be promiscuous, whoops.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Even assuming your (narrow-minded and quite prejudicial in my opinion) generalization was even true, even if 90% of gay men are promiscuous and sex-obsessed, does that mean we should turn away the 10% that aren't? What about them? I have to say, as a celibate bisexual man, I must not have gotten the memo that LGBT people are supposed to be promiscuous, whoops.

I find it funny how people like to tar LGBT people with one brush. I shudder to think how people would think of me as a straight man if situations were reversed.

I remember a local strip club with an attached motel. What went on there was eminently heterosexual, but I never heard anyone giving it as an example of "straight culture" or assuming that it reflected my experience or attitudes just because I'm hetero.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

I find it funny how people like to tar LGBT people with one brush. I shudder to think how people would think of me as a straight man if situations were reversed.

I remember a local strip club with an attached motel. What went on there was eminently heterosexual, but I never heard anyone giving it as an example of "straight culture" or assuming that it reflected my experience or attitudes just because I'm hetero.

I'll never understand it either. I just don't understand how it is so hard for some people to understand that:

There are promiscuous gays
There are non-promiscuous gays

There are promiscuous straights
There are non-promiscuous straights

There are promiscuous lesbians
There are non-promiscuous lesbians

There are promiscuous bisexuals
There are non-promiscuous bisexuals.

Why is this so hard for people to wrap their heads around?!?

 

[dgirl1986]

Honestly... where are these gay men who want to get married?
The 90 % of gay men are promiscuous sex-obsessed people...who are afraid even of the word "relationship"...not to mention "marriage".

I have not found this to be the case.

 

[dgirl1986]

I'll never understand it either. I just don't understand how it is so hard for some people to understand that:

There are promiscuous gays
There are non-promiscuous gays

There are promiscuous straights
There are non-promiscuous straights

There are promiscuous lesbians
There are non-promiscuous lesbians

There are promiscuous bisexuals
There are non-promiscuous bisexuals.

Why is this so hard for people to wrap their heads around?!?

Exactly. Its called being human.

 

[dgirl1986]

Im too tired to read through 6 pages of posts that I have missed over the weekend but I wish to say this...

If there is something that you wonder about homosexuals or lgbt why not either find a related blog written by such a person or freaking ask a homo. Seriously.

Consider this an open invitation to send me a message and ask a question.

I have to say I am kind of disappointed that I received 0 questions.

 

[sojourner]

I have to say I am kind of disappointed that I received 0 questions.

Perhaps because those who need to know the worst, desire to know the least. It's easier for them to perpetuate the judgment and oppression if they can keep LGBT people objectified and at arm's length.

 

[Estro Felino]

I have not found this to be the case.

Honey, I assume you are a lesbian. I didn't say that gay marriage is not a good idea. I was just saying that women and a small percentage of men will use the opportunity to get married.

In my country men hate the word marriage, whether they are straight or gay.
so...maybe we should legalize the lesbian marriage exclusively