Satan and the Sanctity of Marriage

[JoStories]

Well that's lovely and condescending of you.

You're trying to convince me that a man from 1000+ years ago was a misogynist, And I'm trying to tell you he was a product of his culture and then you're trying to tell me that the culture wasn't 'that bad' but it was. Women were not equal, No matter that a few rich and highborn ones got some power or some respect. They weren't all women, they were just some lucky ones. And maybe they're well known now, But who can say how well known they were then?

If you want to think that Paul was a bad guy, that he could of thought differently, then it's not me denying facts.

It was not condescending at all. I have tried to show you that there were lots of women of power and you simply deny that. If you wish to believe Paul was not what many people agree he was, based on his writing, that is fine Thana. But I won't continue to play Don Quixote here.

 

[JoStories]

Poor Paul. He is one of my favorite Saints and he gets crapped on so much today.

St. Paul, pray for us. We need it.

I don't believe anyone here is trying to openly disrespect Paul. The question was whether or not he knew of other cultures and that those cultures were not as misogynist as he seems to intimate in his works. The fact remains that his view of women is very negative and seems to indicate that women were of lesser value. That was not the case in many of the cultures of his time.

 

[JoStories]

I think someones been watching too many hollywood movies

Your point? Or was this just to be rude? I don;t see the value of being rancorous to people who disagree with your POV.

 

[JoStories]

Well there's no need to be rude, No, I don't get your point. Jesus was the Messiah while Paul was a preacher and a Pharisee.
And Jesus didn't speak out against Slavery or gender inequality either.

The point was, I believe, that Jesus didn't treat women the way Paul did. Why do you think that was? What about Paul made him say the things he did about women when Christ never said or taught these things? And whom would you rather believe, given that Christ was the messiah?

 

[McBell]

The point was, I believe, that Jesus didn't treat women the way Paul did. Why do you think that was? What about Paul made him say the things he did about women when Christ never said or taught these things? And whom would you rather believe, given that Christ was the messiah?

Obviously the Answer is Paul.
the real question is why Paul over Jesus.

I suspect it is because there is much more of Paul's opinions in the Bible than there are of Jesus opinions....

 

[shadowvamp085]

I suspect it is because there is much more of Paul's opinions in the Bible than there are of Jesus opinions....

Very true Mestemia.

JoStories - read the Old Testament. Condoning rape against women doesn't really feel like it makes women powerful

 

[Thana]

The point was, I believe, that Jesus didn't treat women the way Paul did. Why do you think that was? What about Paul made him say the things he did about women when Christ never said or taught these things? And whom would you rather believe, given that Christ was the messiah?

Well, Jesus was the Messiah. And if Trinitarians are to be believed, Also God Himself.
Whereas Paul was just a man. And a Pharisee, no less.

Jesus came to die for our Salvation, Paul was there to teach and guide people and churches. He wasn't perfect, of course, not only was he a sinner like the rest of us but he was also bound by the law of the land and the culture of the time. Now you can pretend all you like that the Romans and Jews were fair to women, But the truth is they were not. Maybe a few highborn and rich women didn't suffer as harshly as the rest of their gender, But that doesn't really mean much, Especially since Paul and Jesus spoke mainly to the poor/middle class.

And if I recall correctly, Paul spoke pretty highly of a few Christian women and talked about their faith and I'm pretty some of them were very influential in their churches.

But honestly, I'm kind of tired of this debate. People see what they want to see, And whether Paul was a sexist or not is kind of irrelevant, don't you think? Most people were then, and Paul was just a man. He spoke on spiritual matters, But like all those in the bible, he was subject to the flesh and therefore to sin.

 

[JoStories]

Obviously the Answer is Paul.
the real question is why Paul over Jesus.

I suspect it is because there is much more of Paul's opinions in the Bible than there are of Jesus opinions....

I would strongly agree. There is much that is attributed to Jesus that is wonderful wisdom, both within the Bible and those extant Gospels that are considered heresy. Paul, IMO, has led to an entirely different faith that is more Paulian in nature that Christian.

 

[JoStories]

Very true Mestemia.

JoStories - read the Old Testament. Condoning rape against women doesn't really feel like it makes women powerful

I see that you are new here and are not aware of some of my opinions about these things. We are only talking about Paul here and whether or not he really knew the culture of the time and whether what he knew was true, as it pertains to his writings about women and how they should be treated. I am not Christian btw. Far from it. I am Buddhist. I have many issues with the OT and the NT.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

He wasn't perfect, of course, not only was he a sinner like the rest of us but he was also bound by the law of the land and the culture of the time.

It was also the "culture of the time" for the likes of Aristotle, Freud, and Schopenhauer, but people tend to not give them a free-pass either on their misogynist claims. It was also the time and culture when Jon Stuart Mill wrote, but he is indeed an early proto-feminist author, as was Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels (more so Engels). And the times didn't make Percy Shelley prevent his wife, Mary Shelley, from being an author during the early 19th century, even though Friedrich Nietzsche wrote scathing critics of women during the late 19th century.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

Oh man... Forever_Catholic I have a few things I would like you to comment upon.

1. I thought God loves everyone and created all of us?
A. So he loves gays but it's satan who allows them to truly love by getting married?
B. Did God mess up on his creations then if they are gay?

A.
1. Yes, God loves gays, but Satan does not. Satan hates every soul, which is why he works so incessantly to bring about their eternal damnation.
2. Satan can not allow or disallow people to do anything, except for those who are possessed (which occurs by explicit consent).
3. Truly loving a person and carnal love.are two different things.

B.
Did God mess up because there are birth defects, diseases, tragedies, cruelties, and so forth? He created every human in his image and likeness, which refers to the soul. He did not say that any of them would be perfect in the earthly life or have perfection on earth (although Adam and Eve had perfection until they separated themselves from God). We all have our faults, unfulfilled desires, struggles, weaknesses, temptations, sins, and sufferings. We all have our cross to bear.

2. I read your "what's next" post. So you believe that people are going to try and run the Christians and their religion.... Well aren't those same Christians doing the same by trying to regulate how people live their lives -be it gay, birth control, so on?

The interest of the Catholic Church in that regard, and all Christians who do what Jesus requires of us, is to help everyone achieve salvation in whatever way we can. Warning a person about a sin and its consequences is not an attempt to regulate how he lives his life. Admonishing a sinner is a spiritual work of mercy.

3. Christianity was not the first for marriage to play a part in. But why is their view the "right" view?

Since the first married couple was Adam and Eve, who were joined together by God, and since that is in the Torah, and since Christianity is the completion of Judaism, our view of marriage is the right view.

4. You do realize that a lot of the things in the bible came from other religions right -such as paganism. Take Christmas, that wasn't actually Jesus' birthday... It was the winter solstice... But now it's Jesus' birthday?

Nothing in the Christian Bible came from paganism or any other religion aside from Judaism. The birth of Jesus is in the Bible, but the date is not given in scripture. There's more to say about that, but it's beyond the scope of this thread, and could turn into a whole new debate.

5. If God is so right and satan is so wrong.... Why has god killed a lot of people according to the bible, while satan hasn't really killed one?

In all the biblical references that come to mind, God killed specific people for specific just causes, following all due patience and warning, which was his to do. Satan would not gain anything by killing people himself. He knows (unlike many people) that the earthly life is only momentary compared to the eternal life of the soul, and that's what he's interested in; that the eternal life of a soul will be in hell. Aside from that, Satan and the demons are restrained within parameters set by God in what they can do on earth and what they can't do. (And a little off topic, but in hell they are entirely unrestrained in torturing human souls.)

But Satan has had enormous influence on people throughout history, and that's how he gains what he's after. Whenever he brings about a murder, he has the soul of the murderer in his hands until and unless the murderer repents and asks God to forgive him. Do you think Satan had no part in the Holocaust and all the other genocide and atrocities committed by people?

6. Why is it okay to look past the raping of children by priest and focus on gay marriage?

Start a new thread if you want to attack the Catholic Church, and I'll respond to your hateful statements there.

7. You think marriage between homosexuals will ruin the sanctity of marriage? Well look at celebrities... Married for a month and then divorced... Heterosexuals don't seem to be saving the sanctity very well.

Many, many heterosexuals have destroyed whatever sanctity there may have been in their own marriages, either temporarily or permanently. But that hasn't destroyed the sanctity of marriage as God established it.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

Also I would like to state religion is created by beliefs not facts.

So quite frankly, believing that gay marriage is satans agenda is not fact. Just a belief. Give me solid proof that satan loves the love, and God hates it. And if you by some miracle can find a solid based fact of this... I feel bad for all those who follow a God who would hate the happiness of what he supposedly created.

Everything you state here is your flawed opinion, with nothing included to back it up, but you ask me for solid proof. If you knew anything about either God or Satan, you wouldn't need proof.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

And if we are supposed to stay in the "traditional" lifestyle in regards to what the bible says, than women are to be almost nothing and rape would be okay. Also we would still be stoning people to death....

Is that okay Forever_Catholic?

How much do you know about what the bible says? Is there a verse that says women are almost nothing or one that says rape is okay? Do you know what Jesus said about stoning a person to death?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

1. Yes, God loves gays, but Satan does not. Satan hates every soul, which is why he works so incessantly to bring about their eternal damnation.

If god loves every soul, why does he not do more to stop Satan?

2. Satan can not allow or disallow people to do anything, except for those who are possessed (which occurs by explicit consent).

And Satan can do nothing without God's permission.

3. Truly loving a person and carnal love.are two different things.

That is an unfair and offensive assumption to assume that homosexuals are incapable of truly loving their partner.

Did God mess up because there are birth defects, diseases, tragedies, cruelties, and so forth?

He seems to be unwilling to fix it. If a computer programmer releases a faulty program, this is understandable. But it is irresponsible to release this program and not fix it.

Admonishing a sinner is a spiritual work of mercy.

And a great way to come off as an *******.

Since the first married couple was Adam and Eve, who were joined together by God, and since that is in the Torah, and since Christianity is the completion of Judaism, our view of marriage is the right view.

That is only if you believe that.

Nothing in the Christian Bible came from paganism or any other religion aside from Judaism.

Many things did. Even the image of your Satan comes from the image of the Pagan god Pan.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

If god loves every soul, why does he not do more to stop Satan?

Because he gave us all a free will and does not violate it. God wants us to freely love him in return, just as you would want a person you love to freely love you in return. The more you love God, the less influence Satan has on your actions.

And Satan can do nothing without God's permission.

Nothing.

That is an unfair and offensive assumption to assume that homosexuals are incapable of truly loving their partner.

I didn't say that. Could you have a greater love for a person than to sincerely desire their well being on earth and eternal happiness? That has nothing to do with who you want to have sex with.

He seems to be unwilling to fix it. If a computer programmer releases a faulty program, this is understandable. But it is irresponsible to release this program and not fix it.

You're thinking only about the here and now. God is concerned with your eternity. The imperfections of this life have a purpose in the development and purification of the spirit. Everything is perfect in heaven.

And a great way to come off as an *******.

Yeah, it's not always appreciated, even though the warning is intended to guide them toward salvation.

That is only if you believe that.

I do. Can't make you believe it.

Many things did. Even the image of your Satan comes from the image of the Pagan god Pan.

There are valid concepts in paganism that are independent of biblical concepts.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

God is concerned with your eternity.

If he was concerned about my eternity, he wouldn't make it perfect, which after a short while would become hellishly boring and dull.

Nothing.

Which means God gives Satan permission to screw with us. We aren't supposed to tempt fate, but God does it every time he has the devil attempt to lure us away from God.

Because he gave us all a free will and does not violate it. God wants us to freely love him in return, just as you would want a person you love to freely love you in return. The more you love God, the less influence Satan has on your actions.

True, but if I had the power and ability to do something about it, I wouldn't idle stand by and let someone cause harm to someone I love.

You're thinking only about the here and now. God is concerned with your eternity. The imperfections of this life have a purpose in the development and purification of the spirit. Everything is perfect in heaven.

The point was, if someone makes something that is flawed, we expect it to be fixed. God has not fixed it. He is treating the symptoms, instead of the illness.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

If he was concerned about my eternity, he wouldn't make it perfect, which after a short while would become hellishly boring and dull.

You wouldn't have to worry about boredom. Heaven is an enormous and intensely beautiful place, and the joy and pleasures of heaven are infinite. They are beyond the capacity of the human mind to even imagine, as Saint Paul explained. And many of what we call the mystics of the Church, saints and blesseds who were given visions of heaven, wrote about what they were shown. They said that what they saw can not in any way be described adequately because there is no human vocabulary with which to describe it. The main eternal joy of heaven is being with God, which every soul fully understands after physical death. But consider that the entire universe is only part of God's creation, and that the greater part of it is what he wants to share with you.

Which means God gives Satan permission to screw with us. We aren't supposed to tempt fate, but God does it every time he has the devil attempt to lure us away from God.

You remember the free-will thing that is so important to God? Well, if there was no evil in the world, there would be no free will. There would be no testing and strengthening of the spirit. There would be no acceptance of God by choice.

And God does not have the the devil attempt to lure us away.from him; he only permits it The devil does all the planning and execution himself.

True, but if I had the power and ability to do something about it, I wouldn't idle stand by and let someone cause harm to someone I love.

God protects us on a regular basis, often in ways we're not even aware of at the time, if ever. But there are many innocent victims as well, who at that time are not protected. That could be a religious essay topic. Another reason why God permits evil is for the good that can come out of it, but the bottom line would be that the only eternally important thing is the state of the soul at the time of death.

"And be not afraid of those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul; but fear rather him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)

The point was, if someone makes something that is flawed, we expect it to be fixed. God has not fixed it. He is treating the symptoms, instead of the illness.

What do you mean by "treating the symptoms?"

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Heaven is an enormous and intensely beautiful place, and the joy and pleasures of heaven are infinite.

If there are no challenges or struggles, what is the point?
If there is nothing but joy and pleasure, how can we know it is joy and pleasure without pain and sorrow to remind us what is joy and pleasure?

And God does not have the the devil attempt to lure us away.from him; he only permits it The devil does all the planning and execution himself.

It's sorta like allowing the loopholes to continue to exist that allow high-roller Wall Street tycoons, bankers, and corporate executives to do the things they did that tanked the economy and caused massive and widespread harm. No, the government didn't make it happen, but they allow it to happen, and they haven't done a damn thing to prevent it from happening again.

What do you mean by "treating the symptoms?"

Rather than fixing what is a fundamental flaw, this alleged sinful nature, he put a band-aid on it by having his own son brutally murdered so that we might have faith that it happened and be saved. It's like giving someone cough syrup to treat a cough when antibiotics are needed to treat the disease.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

If there are no challenges or struggles, what is the point?
If there is nothing but joy and pleasure, how can we know it is joy and pleasure without pain and sorrow to remind us what is joy and pleasure?

I can't even take a shot at naming or describing all the fulfilling specifics of heaven that might answer for you what the point is. From down here on earth we can only trust in his promises. But as for having pain and sorrow as a reminder, so that you'll fully appreciate the joy and pleasures of heaven, you'll still have your memories of them. And you'll know even more about hell than we can know now, probably even seeing it you want, but without having to experience it. That should provide a good contrast.

On the other hand, souls in hell still have their memories of earthly pleasures with which to compare to the eternal suffering, stench, and darkness of hell, along with their regrets and separation from God. It could only be worse if they got a vision of heaven now and then, and maybe they do.

It's sorta like allowing the loopholes to continue to exist that allow high-roller Wall Street tycoons, bankers, and corporate executives to do the things they did that tanked the economy and caused massive and widespread harm. No, the government didn't make it happen, but they allow it to happen, and they haven't done a damn thing to prevent it from happening again.

Except that governments are lying, corrupt entities who have no love for those they are governing, and no desire to compensate anyone for anything unless it's driven by a self-serving motive.

Rather than fixing what is a fundamental flaw, this alleged sinful nature, he put a band-aid on it by having his own son brutally murdered so that we might have faith that it happened and be saved. It's like giving someone cough syrup to treat a cough when antibiotics are needed to treat the disease.

He wasn't crucified so that we might believe (although his resurrection from the dead certainly made believers out of people). But he was sacrificed in atonement for our sins. Sacrificed to restore the union between man and God that was broken by the disobedience of Adam and Eve, which caused them and all humanity the loss of sanctifying grace. Sure, we still have the fundamental flaw, the fallen nature, but we also have the definitive cure available.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

On the other hand, souls in hell still have their memories of earthly pleasures with which to compare to the eternal suffering, stench, and darkness of hell, along with their regrets and separation from God. It could only be worse if they got a vision of heaven now and then, and maybe they do.

A stench you get used to. Darkness I prefer over light. And, to me, being separated from God isn't a concern or a bad thing.
This separation thing sounds no different than my parents trying really hard to talk me into staying here, in Indiana, even though I hate it here and could do much better for myself elsewhere.

Except that governments are lying, corrupt entities who have no love for those they are governing, and no desire to compensate anyone for anything unless it's driven by a self-serving motive.

God said the son shall not pay for the sins of the father, but yet he also allowed Cain and Abel to be punished for the sins of Adam and Eve by allowing them to inherit a sinful nature and not giving them their own chance at living in the Garden. Because we are inherently doomed to a sinful nature because of Adam and Eve, we are being punished because of Adam and Eve, thus God is a liar because the son is not supposed to be punished for the sins of the father.

Sure, we still have the fundamental flaw, the fallen nature, but we also have the definitive cure available.

Which is a band-aid cure, because God, who is supposed to be omnipotent, did not address the heart of the problem by eliminating sin, but rather he damned his own son to suffer so that if we have faith in him, we'll be saved, rather than taking steps to ensure everyone is saved without anything interfering. How can it be said he loves us when he allowed for a myriad of religions that are equally true and real in the eyes of the believer?