Satan and the Sanctity of Marriage

[Forever_Catholic]

God said the son shall not pay for the sins of the father, but yet he also allowed Cain and Abel to be punished for the sins of Adam and Eve by allowing them to inherit a sinful nature and not giving them their own chance at living in the Garden. Because we are inherently doomed to a sinful nature because of Adam and Eve, we are being punished because of Adam and Eve, thus God is a liar because the son is not supposed to be punished for the sins of the father.

A person's understandings can change and develop over time. I hope you will see the bigger picture someday. Meanwhile, it is an error to make a judgment against God and a sin to blaspheme.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I hope you will see the bigger picture someday.

Seeing the bigger picture is why I am agnostic.

Meanwhile, it is an error to make a judgment against God and a sin to blaspheme.

Obviously, I am unconcerned about these things.

 

[LuisDantas]

Refusing to use basic discernment and compassion is as big a blasphemy as I can conceive, though.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

Refusing to use basic discernment and compassion is as big a blasphemy as I can conceive, though.

I understand the argument you're making, but it's worth noting that this statement is interesting in itself. It puts together three important concepts, each having broad significance. All of them can be interrelated in some way, and all can be understood differently from different points of view.

 

[LuisDantas]

Well, I suppose I agree... but really, it is not altogether much of a difficult choice.

 

[JoStories]

Nothing in the Christian Bible came from paganism or any other religion aside from Judaism. The birth of Jesus is in the Bible, but the date is not given in scripture. There's more to say about that, but it's beyond the scope of this thread, and could turn into a whole new debate.


This is so wrong. The Bible, per most credible scholars, did come from various older sources, and that includes Paganism. Are you aware the the symbol of the fish for Christianity came from an old Pagan faith from the island of Catal Huyuk? Are you aware the the idea of the trinity is stolen from Egyptian lore? Specifically, Osiris and Horus. Scholars do not even agree that there was a man named Jesus. Someone like him but most agree he is allegorical and in no way does that intimate the actual man.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Nothing in the Christian Bible came from paganism or any other religion aside from Judaism. The birth of Jesus is in the Bible, but the date is not given in scripture. There's more to say about that, but it's beyond the scope of this thread, and could turn into a whole new debate.


This is so wrong. The Bible, per most credible scholars, did come from various older sources, and that includes Paganism. Are you aware the the symbol of the fish for Christianity came from an old Pagan faith from the island of Catal Huyuk? Are you aware the the idea of the trinity is stolen from Egyptian lore? Specifically, Osiris and Horus. Scholars do not even agree that there was a man named Jesus. Someone like him but most agree he is allegorical and in no way does that intimate the actual man.

The Fish symbol is also found in Egypt. Gilgamesh is the earliest known flood story. The Saints of Catholicism are basically patron dieties, a practice found throughout pre-Christian Europe. Virgin birth, death, and resurrection were already old stories by the time it passed to Jesus.
Personally, I think there very likely was someone who was the basis of the Jesus stories, probably a shaman that a merchant or someone else from Rome saw, was fascinated by the shaman's rituals and teachings, and brought them back to Rome.

 

[JoStories]

The Fish symbol is also found in Egypt. Gilgamesh is the earliest known flood story. The Saints of Catholicism are basically patron dieties, a practice found throughout pre-Christian Europe. Virgin birth, death, and resurrection were already old stories by the time it passed to Jesus.
Personally, I think there very likely was someone who was the basis of the Jesus stories, probably a shaman that a merchant or someone else from Rome saw, was fascinated by the shaman's rituals and teachings, and brought them back to Rome.

Most people do agree there was someone like the character Jesus but no one can support that with an accurate historicity, at least the man himself. And of course, you already know I believe the older stories and such were the fodder that was used to create Christianity. Too much resembles older stories to make it truly original.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

This is so wrong. The Bible, per most credible scholars, did come from various older sources, and that includes Paganism. Are you aware the the symbol of the fish for Christianity came from an old Pagan faith from the island of Catal Huyuk? Are you aware the the idea of the trinity is stolen from Egyptian lore? Specifically, Osiris and Horus. Scholars do not even agree that there was a man named Jesus. Someone like him but most agree he is allegorical and in no way does that intimate the actual man.

The Fish symbol is also found in Egypt. Gilgamesh is the earliest known flood story. The Saints of Catholicism are basically patron dieties, a practice found throughout pre-Christian Europe. Virgin birth, death, and resurrection were already old stories by the time it passed to Jesus.
Personally, I think there very likely was someone who was the basis of the Jesus stories, probably a shaman that a merchant or someone else from Rome saw, was fascinated by the shaman's rituals and teachings, and brought them back to Rome.

Most people do agree there was someone like the character Jesus but no one can support that with an accurate historicity, at least the man himself. And of course, you already know I believe the older stories and such were the fodder that was used to create Christianity. Too much resembles older stories to make it truly original.

When I said that the pagan stuff is beyond the scope of this thread and could turn into a whole new debate, I was hoping nobody would push it further, because it can become a tedious argument. But not only did you do it, you threw in the old maybe-there-was-no-such-person-as-Jesus and other stuff. Now I would appear to be unable to argue these points if I didn't respond to your persistence. So:

There are ancient, non-Christian historical references to Christ and Christianity. For example:

Josephus (born 37 A.D), the Jewish historian, wrote about Jesus. He also about wrote about John the Baptist and his being put to death by King Herod.

Tacitus,(born 56 A.D.), the Roman senator and historian, wrote about the crucifixion of Jesus by Pontius Pilate and also documented the persecution of Christians by Nero.

Pliny the Younger (born 61 A.D.), a Roman Governor, wrote about the early Christians, whom he considered a problem.

There is a body of both physical and written evidence of Christ’s historical reality aside from scripture and sacred tradition, but there have always been those who dispute it, just as they dispute the scriptures and sacred tradition.

The fish symbol was used by a number of pagan religions for their own reasons. And It was among the symbols used by early Christians for theirs, particularly due to the pattern of references to fish in the New Testament; catching them, eating them, “fishers of men,” Jesus feeding 5,000 people with two fish and five loaves of bread, etc. It was also used by early Christians because its significance to them was not known by the uninitiated, who would have included those involved in the persecution of Christians.

In Egyptian mythology, Osiris and Isis were two of four siblings. And after an incestuous marriage between them, Isis gave birth to Horus. These related, but distinctly separate god persons can not be a parallel with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who are all one. And how would the related mother god and father god and the other two sibling gods get worked into a trinity picture worth stealing as a basis for the One Triune God?

One of the problems with the pagan-roots-of-Christianity claims is that the so-called correlations don’t make sense when you really look at them. And a pagan symbol depicting a fish does not establish the origin or use of either symbols or fish, much less establish a pagan link with the Christian Faith. If that argument had any merit, then the Bass Pro Shops logo would indicate that the company has a pagan origin.

Abraham, Moses, and Jesus all lived in a world in which paganism in all its forms was overwhelmingly predominant, but none if it was part of Judaism or Christianity. Salvation history is found only in the Bible.

And "The Saints of Catholicism are basically patron dieties..." No, a deity is a god or goddess, Saints are holy creatures. They are the angels and human souls in heaven.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And "The Saints of Catholicism are basically patron dieties..." No, a deity is a god or goddess, Saints are holy creatures. They are the angels and human souls in heaven.

They are basically the same as patron deities because you pray to your patron deities to gain favor, much as you pray to the saints to gain favor. It's also no coincidence that Christmas is celebrated when it is, as the Winter Solstice is, traditionally in Pagan roots, the time of the birth/rebirth of sun deities.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

When I said that the pagan stuff is beyond the scope of this thread and could turn into a whole new debate, I was hoping nobody would push it further, because it can become a tedious argument. But not only did you do it, you threw in the old maybe-there-was-no-such-person-as-Jesus and other stuff. Now I would appear to be unable to argue these points if I didn't respond to your persistence. So:

There are ancient, non-Christian historical references to Christ and Christianity. For example:

Josephus (born 37 A.D), the Jewish historian, wrote about Jesus. He also about wrote about John the Baptist and his being put to death by King Herod.

Tacitus,(born 56 A.D.), the Roman senator and historian, wrote about the crucifixion of Jesus by Pontius Pilate and also documented the persecution of Christians by Nero.

Pliny the Younger (born 61 A.D.), a Roman Governor, wrote about the early Christians, whom he considered a problem.

There is a body of both physical and written evidence of Christ’s historical reality aside from scripture and sacred tradition, but there have always been those who dispute it, just as they dispute the scriptures and sacred tradition.

The fish symbol was used by a number of pagan religions for their own reasons. And It was among the symbols used by early Christians for theirs, particularly due to the pattern of references to fish in the New Testament; catching them, eating them, “fishers of men,” Jesus feeding 5,000 people with two fish and five loaves of bread, etc. It was also used by early Christians because its significance to them was not known by the uninitiated, who would have included those involved in the persecution of Christians.

In Egyptian mythology, Osiris and Isis were two of four siblings. And after an incestuous marriage between them, Isis gave birth to Horus. These related, but distinctly separate god persons can not be a parallel with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who are all one. And how would the related mother god and father god and the other two sibling gods get worked into a trinity picture worth stealing as a basis for the One Triune God?

One of the problems with the pagan-roots-of-Christianity claims is that the so-called correlations don’t make sense when you really look at them. And a pagan symbol depicting a fish does not establish the origin or use of either symbols or fish, much less establish a pagan link with the Christian Faith. If that argument had any merit, then the Bass Pro Shops logo would indicate that the company has a pagan origin.

Abraham, Moses, and Jesus all lived in a world in which paganism in all its forms was overwhelmingly predominant, but none if it was part of Judaism or Christianity. Salvation history is found only in the Bible.

And "The Saints of Catholicism are basically patron dieties..." No, a deity is a god or goddess, Saints are holy creatures. They are the angels and human souls in heaven.

It does not need to be negative, though.

Think about it. Unless pagans took from Catholicism (even though pagans were around long before the Church)

You have the altar. In todays time, that would seem weird. In the Bible it was not weird at all. Abraham had an altar he placed his own child own.(that screams out negative paganism to me; offering a child...whats interesting is a catholic priest told me that in Abrahams day they practiced human sacrifice so that was normal to offer a person for Gods obedience) However, there are folk paganism. Using cultural (or traditional) means of worship.

Roman influence/paganism is part of the Church AND that is not negative. The colors, the symbols during easter vigil, sigils, the candles, etc are folk pagan themes. (Pagan meaning cultural, ex Roman, traditions mixed with the faith of that time period)

In the Philipines, some people offer prayers and food to the deceased and to saints. Even paper money. That is folk practices/paganism and it is incorporated into Catholicism which, that and Muslim, seem to be deminate in that country.

Pagan is highly seen as using "magic" or unfluencing the unseen by what we do on earth.

Baptist, non denomi, prysp, churches among many, have strict definitions of symbolism versus spirituality when relating anything on earth as spiritual. You mind as well say they are athiest minded and Catholic more magic or pagan minded. As in the Eucharist becoming Jesus but the bread/wine looks like bread/wine. In paganism, spirituality and physical things coexist. In modern religions like branch of denimni they striped the folk traditions (paganism) and kept with the "we are spiritual and not religious" gig.

Another pagan practice that mirrors the Eucharist is when santeros put the Orisha in a statue of that Orisha. Literally (not metaphoricaly) calling the spirit into wood.

Paganism is not a bad word. There is a difference between keeping folk traditions and spiritual/physical connections and using divination, talking to the dead, and socery which are not all pagan practices.

Edit

Basically, a lot of older faiths come from pagan religions. The modern denomni striped the paganism and tradition claiming that folk practices and tradition contradict Christ teachings. It depends on what pagan practice. Roman Catholicism is influenced by Romans and their native faith before Catholicism became the big religion. Is it wrong? No. The disciples still handed the Eucharist and it still has its same meaning.

Point: Just because a religion has pagan roots doesnt mean it is a pagan faith.

 

[Unification]

The father of lies is probably even happier about the Supreme Court’s decision than the all the human same-sex marriage supporters put together. That’s because it’s part of an agenda that is critically important to him, according to Sister Lucia dos Santos of Fatima. She was one of the three children in Portugal to whom Saint Mary appeared, interacting with them in six monthly visits from May to October 1917. Do a search on Our Lady of Fatima if you’re interested in more on that.

My only point here is to throw out something Sister Lucia revealed in correspondence with Cardinal Carlo Caffarra, Archbishop of Bologna, not long before her death in 2005:

"The final battle between the Lord and the reign of Satan will be about marriage and the family. Don’t be afraid, because anyone who works for the sanctity of marriage and the family will always be fought and opposed in every way, because this is the decisive issue."

The father of lies is ones own ego, as Satan is ones own ego, one that separates themselves from the rest of mankind and equality due to ego, pride, religion, rules and regulations, control. A deceived self. The sanctity of marriage scripturally is internally, between self and one and the same individual. Man's dual nature uniting into divine marriage internally. Man cares for their outward literal legal marriage and twists spiritual texts to outward vanity, that's the father of lies. That's spiritual adultery and cheating on "God" and oneness with mankind with lies to create divide, inequality, and hate. The father of lies has the vain and outward "churches" all confused.

 

[Unification]

Same-sex marriage isn't marriage. It's only a hijacking of the word; a redefinition that doesn't make a new truth. You can call a homosexual union a marriage, but it's still a violation of natural law, and as a sacrament established by God, a valid marriage can only be a union of a man and a woman.

But in the ideological and political sense, gay marriage is geared toward the dismantling of morality and the traditional family. The issue is not just gay marriage itself, but the broader effects to come.

A union between man(conscious) and woman(subconscious) into one. Or a union between man(soul) and woman(mind) into one. Traditions are man-made.

 

[Unification]

They've already started. The pressuring of the media, government and the left in general for anyone with a faith-based opposition to put it aside in favor of the new morality. Fining a business that chooses not to participate in a same-sex wedding by providing photography, flowers, or wedding cakes; talking already about taking away the tax exemptions of churches that will not perform same-sex weddings; shutting down adoption agencies that will not place children in the households of homosexual couples. There is a renewed and intensified effort to attack Christianity, and particularly the Catholic Church, unless maybe they stop viewing God as a higher authority than the worldly powers.

What will the next steps be?

The effects and gradual revelation of "truth" is always being revealed, and this is one more, this is "truth" returning and the "churches" are so blinded and deceived to see the equality due to outward doctrine. If I'm not mistaken, "I am the truth and the life" has dominion over both heaven and earth and makes the rulers of the nations to consciously make decisions for "God's" will.

 

[JoStories]

There are ancient, non-Christian historical references to Christ and Christianity. For example:

Josephus (born 37 A.D), the Jewish historian, wrote about Jesus. He also about wrote about John the Baptist and his being put to death by King Herod.

Tacitus,(born 56 A.D.), the Roman senator and historian, wrote about the crucifixion of Jesus by Pontius Pilate and also documented the persecution of Christians by Nero.

Pliny the Younger (born 61 A.D.), a Roman Governor, wrote about the early Christians, whom he considered a problem.

There is a body of both physical and written evidence of Christ’s historical reality aside from scripture and sacred tradition, but there have always been those who dispute it, just as they dispute the scriptures and sacred tradition.

None of the above references are considered irrefutable evidence for the existence of Jesus. They point to a man who may or may not have been Jesus. No one is saying these references are not important artifacts but neither are they considered to be absolute proof.

 

[JoStories]

In Egyptian mythology, Osiris and Isis were two of four siblings. And after an incestuous marriage between them, Isis gave birth to Horus. These related, but distinctly separate god persons can not be a parallel with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who are all one. And how would the related mother god and father god and the other two sibling gods get worked into a trinity picture worth stealing as a basis for the One Triune God?

What they do point to is the birth of a Godhead son. I would suggest you reread the Egyptian lore related to this myth. The idea of the trinity was born of this, not to mention that the Ankh was also the symbol used for your 'cross'.

 

[JoStories]

It does not need to be negative, though.

Think about it. Unless pagans took from Catholicism (even though pagans were around long before the Church)

You have the altar. In todays time, that would seem weird. In the Bible it was not weird at all. Abraham had an altar he placed his own child own.(that screams out negative paganism to me; offering a child...whats interesting is a catholic priest told me that in Abrahams day they practiced human sacrifice so that was normal to offer a person for Gods obedience) However, there are folk paganism. Using cultural (or traditional) means of worship.

Roman influence/paganism is part of the Church AND that is not negative. The colors, the symbols during easter vigil, sigils, the candles, etc are folk pagan themes. (Pagan meaning cultural, ex Roman, traditions mixed with the faith of that time period)

In the Philipines, some people offer prayers and food to the deceased and to saints. Even paper money. That is folk practices/paganism and it is incorporated into Catholicism which, that and Muslim, seem to be deminate in that country.

Pagan is highly seen as using "magic" or unfluencing the unseen by what we do on earth.

Baptist, non denomi, prysp, churches among many, have strict definitions of symbolism versus spirituality when relating anything on earth as spiritual. You mind as well say they are athiest minded and Catholic more magic or pagan minded. As in the Eucharist becoming Jesus but the bread/wine looks like bread/wine. In paganism, spirituality and physical things coexist. In modern religions like branch of denimni they striped the folk traditions (paganism) and kept with the "we are spiritual and not religious" gig.

Another pagan practice that mirrors the Eucharist is when santeros put the Orisha in a statue of that Orisha. Literally (not metaphoricaly) calling the spirit into wood.

Paganism is not a bad word. There is a difference between keeping folk traditions and spiritual/physical connections and using divination, talking to the dead, and socery which are not all pagan practices.

Edit

Basically, a lot of older faiths come from pagan religions. The modern denomni striped the paganism and tradition claiming that folk practices and tradition contradict Christ teachings. It depends on what pagan practice. Roman Catholicism is influenced by Romans and their native faith before Catholicism became the big religion. Is it wrong? No. The disciples still handed the Eucharist and it still has its same meaning.

Point: Just because a religion has pagan roots doesnt mean it is a pagan faith.

Nice post, however regarding your last sentence, you are right but I would add that it does mean that Christianity it far from original and clearly has older roots taken from Pagan faiths. This claim by Christians that their faith is truly original fails in the face of the overwhelming evidence of these roots and parallels.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Nice post, however regarding your last sentence, you are right but I would add that it does mean that Christianity it far from original and clearly has older roots taken from Pagan faiths. This claim by Christians that their faith is truly original fails in the face of the overwhelming evidence of these roots and parallels.

When I was still a Christian, it really stung, and very deeply, to learn what I had been taught from the Church, that Christianity was its own original thing, except for being built off-of Judaism, and that in reality so much of it heavily borrowed from earlier religions. Such lies were "another brick in the wall" that I'm still working on tearing down.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

When I said that the pagan stuff is beyond the scope of this thread and could turn into a whole new debate, I was hoping nobody would push it further, because it can become a tedious argument. But not only did you do it, you threw in the old maybe-there-was-no-such-person-as-Jesus and other stuff. Now I would appear to be unable to argue these points if I didn't respond to your persistence. So:

There are ancient, non-Christian historical references to Christ and Christianity. For example:

Josephus (born 37 A.D), the Jewish historian, wrote about Jesus. He also about wrote about John the Baptist and his being put to death by King Herod.

Tacitus,(born 56 A.D.), the Roman senator and historian, wrote about the crucifixion of Jesus by Pontius Pilate and also documented the persecution of Christians by Nero.

Pliny the Younger (born 61 A.D.), a Roman Governor, wrote about the early Christians, whom he considered a problem.

There is a body of both physical and written evidence of Christ’s historical reality aside from scripture and sacred tradition, but there have always been those who dispute it, just as they dispute the scriptures and sacred tradition.

The fish symbol was used by a number of pagan religions for their own reasons. And It was among the symbols used by early Christians for theirs, particularly due to the pattern of references to fish in the New Testament; catching them, eating them, “fishers of men,” Jesus feeding 5,000 people with two fish and five loaves of bread, etc. It was also used by early Christians because its significance to them was not known by the uninitiated, who would have included those involved in the persecution of Christians.

In Egyptian mythology, Osiris and Isis were two of four siblings. And after an incestuous marriage between them, Isis gave birth to Horus. These related, but distinctly separate god persons can not be a parallel with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who are all one. And how would the related mother god and father god and the other two sibling gods get worked into a trinity picture worth stealing as a basis for the One Triune God?

One of the problems with the pagan-roots-of-Christianity claims is that the so-called correlations don’t make sense when you really look at them. And a pagan symbol depicting a fish does not establish the origin or use of either symbols or fish, much less establish a pagan link with the Christian Faith. If that argument had any merit, then the Bass Pro Shops logo would indicate that the company has a pagan origin.

Abraham, Moses, and Jesus all lived in a world in which paganism in all its forms was overwhelmingly predominant, but none if it was part of Judaism or Christianity. Salvation history is found only in the Bible.

And "The Saints of Catholicism are basically patron dieties..." No, a deity is a god or goddess, Saints are holy creatures. They are the angels and human souls in heaven.

What is wrong with Christianity having "some" pagan roots? Paganism is just folk traditions and practices of the area. It is the native religions that existed before Christian came over and deminated native faiths. Roman folk traditions are pagan. Likewise, Jewish folk too. Its an umbrella term.

It doesnt mean witchary, divination, or sourcery. Different native land practitioners (pagans) practiced all kinds of things.

Why is it wrong? Also, why would you think Rome native faiths have nothing to do with "Roman" Catholicism? Its not just a trademark name.

Just because christianity has some pagan roots it doesnt make it wrong (unchristian).

 

[JoStories]

When I was still a Christian, it really stung, and very deeply, to learn what I had been taught from the Church, that Christianity was its own original thing, except for being built off-of Judaism, and that in reality so much of it heavily borrowed from earlier religions. Such lies were "another brick in the wall" that I'm still working on tearing down.

I'm sorry Shadow. I had the fortune of parents that exposed me to many faiths and let me choose what I wanted. But I know of many whom I have met who had to shed this wall of crap off.