Satan has religions?

[Breathe]

• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"I will ascend into heaven,[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north;[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]I will be like the Most High." (Isa 14.12-14)[/FONT]

Of course I think the Bible is mostly nonsense, but their it is. Your verse.

Continued:

15 But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
to the depths of the pit.

16 Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
17 the man who made the world a wilderness,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?”

Isaiah 14:15-17, NIV translation. Emphasis added.
Source: Biblegateway.com



Isn't this just some guy who's really proud and thinks he's awesome? I forget the guy's name who it's supposed to be of right now. I think Cyrus the Great? Dunno for sure. Don't hold me on that.

Of course, I dunno if you were providing it because you believed it, or to show where people get it from.

 

[Herr Heinrich]

Another interesting concept I've encountered with Christians I think worth discussing. Many I've spoken to say "Satan has religions". Apparently, Satan isn't happy merely defying god, but also wants to imitate god by formulating his own religions.

Those who bring this idea forth claim that Satan and his demons create religions in which they play gods and give their followers half truths about goodness and salvation, but never the entire that they claim Christianity offers.

What do you think of this idea?

I want to know how they know that Christianity isn't a Satan-founded religion. It sure seems like it.

 

[Pegg]

That isn't the case, though.

Satanism has very little to do with Satan for most Satanists, all except theistic Satanists view Satan as a metaphor for opposing ignorance (by eating fruit of the tree of knowledge and good and evil, allowing them to know) and to choose (as opposed to being forced to obey). It's not a case of "we worship the evil one", but "we believe in freedom and knowledge, not the herd mentality".

so satanists follow satan in his defiance of God. Whoever we choose to follow, we become a slave of that one.

Satanists are still slaves following a leader, just like the anyone else.

 

[Breathe]

so satanists follow satan in his defiance of God.

Satanists are still slaves following a leader, just like the anyone else.

Not quite: most Satanists don't believe in God or the devil.
Satanism is about self-empowerment, not following. To a large number of Satanists, they are their own God. They aren't 'following' the devil.

Whoever we choose to follow, we become a slave of that one.

I disagree; I follow the Hindu gods. I am not their slave.
The Goddess I am closest to, Durga, is not my master nor mistress. She is my mother, which is why I call her "Durga Maa".


Master/slave things, even master/sevant is alien to me.
However, I feel like this is a bit off topic.

 

[Pegg]

Not quite: most Satanists don't believe in God or the devil.
Satanism is about self-empowerment, not following. To a large number of Satanists, they are their own God. They aren't 'following' the devil.

Yeah, thats the exact deception Satan used to entice Eve to follow his path

Genesis 3:4-5 "At this the serpent said to the woman: “YOU positively will not die. 5 For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad.”

Satan wanted to be like God, and he entices others with the prospect of being like God too. Most religions teach the same thing...upon your death you will become a spirit like God and live for all eternity in a better place...you spirit is eternal, like God... you will never die but continue to live indefinitely, like God... you will be able to determine for yourself what is good or bad, like God... you can be independent of laws and create your own, like God

its the same event, retold in different ways.

 

[Blackdog22]

Continued:

15 But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
to the depths of the pit.

16 Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
17 the man who made the world a wilderness,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?”

Isaiah 14:15-17, NIV translation. Emphasis added.
Source: Biblegateway.com



Isn't this just some guy who's really proud and thinks he's awesome? I forget the guy's name who it's supposed to be of right now. I think Cyrus the Great? Dunno for sure. Don't hold me on that.

Of course, I dunno if you were providing it because you believed it, or to show where people get it from.

In all likelihood, you are probably right. I personally don't know who it is about. The new testament references old testament passages completely out of context all the time when quoting prophesies.
The only reason I quoted it is because most christians that I personally know have found this verse to be in reference to Satan, but they all just do what their pastors tell them, they couldn't be pressed to delve further.

 

[Pegg]

In all likelihood, you are probably right. I personally don't know who it is about. The new testament references old testament passages completely out of context all the time when quoting prophesies.
The only reason I quoted it is because most christians that I personally know have found this verse to be in reference to Satan, but they all just do what their pastors tell them, they couldn't be pressed to delve further.

It is about the King of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar.

"To the heavens I shall go up. Above the stars of God I shall lift up my throne, and I shall sit down upon the mountain of meeting, in the remotest parts of the north.Isaiah 14:13, 14
The 'stars' were kings from the line of King David (Numbers 24:17) These 'stars' ruled from Mount Zion which became known as “the mountain of meeting.”
Nebudchudnezza sought to subjugate the Judean kings and remove them from that mountain, thus putting himself above those “stars.”

 

[McBell]

I guess we can thank God for that one.

God...
...or his followers?

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]How[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica], son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart:[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]
"I will ascend into heaven,[/FONT]

• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north;[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]I will be like the Most High." (Isa 14.12-14)[/FONT]

Of course I think the Bible is mostly nonsense, but their it is. Your verse.

This is talking about the king of Babylon, not The Satan.

Not much of an assumption if Satan wishes to be like God, and what does God want? God wants all the glory for he is a jealous God as the Bible says.

God wants what his followers say he wants.
And if it not the glory from us that The Satan is wanting?

Would it be wrong to quote you in saying, "Seems to me you are assuming," that the downfall of the creator is what Satan wants?

I make no such assumption.
I merely do not discount it as a possibility.

Satanism is a group of religions that is composed of a diverse number of ideological and philosophical beliefs and social phenomena. Their shared feature include symbolic association with, admiration for the character of, and even veneration for Satan or similar rebellious, promethean, and liberating figures.

While not all Satanists worship Satan I would consider the people who consider themselves Satanists, with no reguard to Satan, rather confused. Thats like a Christian who has no interest in Christ. Why even claim the title?

Either way a Satanist is a person who follows Satan, A Satanist is also a person who doesn't follow Satan. It just depends on who you talk to, so my previous statement is correct.

I am much more interested in what actual Satanists claim over what some random person posts on Wikipedia...

Church of Satan: The Official Web Site
​

I also understand that for many Christians Satanist is merely an umbrella term they use for anyone who does not believe as they do.

So to say that Satanist means whatever you like makes the term as useless as the word god.

 

[McBell]

Not quite: most Satanists don't believe in God or the devil.
Satanism is about self-empowerment, not following. To a large number of Satanists, they are their own God. They aren't 'following' the devil.



I disagree; I follow the Hindu gods. I am not their slave.
The Goddess I am closest to, Durga, is not my master nor mistress. She is my mother, which is why I call her "Durga Maa".


Master/slave things, even master/sevant is alien to me.
However, I feel like this is a bit off topic.

The thing is... many Christians have problems understanding how one can follow yet not be a slave.
It has to do with their "relationship" with their own deity...

 

[Breathe]

The thing is... many Christians have problems understanding how one can follow yet not be a slave.
It has to do with their "relationship" with their own deity...

Yeah, you're right. It baffles me, it truly does. It just.. how can people believe that kind of stuff?

In all likelihood, you are probably right. I personally don't know who it is about. The new testament references old testament passages completely out of context all the time when quoting prophesies.

Yeah, that sounds about right, not to worry - I had the feeling it wasn't your opinion.

Yeah, thats the exact deception Satan used to entice Eve to follow his path

Genesis 3:4-5 "At this the serpent said to the woman: “YOU positively will not die. 5 For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad.”

And yet Adam lived 930 years. Even if we say he was 130 when it happened, he still lived for another 800 years.

So, he wasn't really lying: they didn't die. Not then. They died in time, but how would one know that they would not have died anyway?

Satan wanted to be like God, and he entices others with the prospect of being like God too.

See, I don't believe that: that's not found within Judaism. Some misconstrued meaning inserted for a text that has nothing to do with it. Satan is a servant of God in Judaism. The idea of an "opponent" of God is between laughable and strange to most Jewish people.

Having Satan as an opponent to God raises more and more questions.

 

[Starsoul]

. Some misconstrued meaning inserted for a text that has nothing to do with it. Satan is a servant of God in Judaism. The idea of an "opponent" of God is between laughable and strange to most Jewish people.

really! How does he serve God then? And if he's the one who serves God, what are the angels for, in judaism?( asking you since you quoted it)

 

[Breathe]

really! How does he serve God then?

By doing as he is told.
Satan just has a job you don't want to be on the receiving end of.

And if he's the one who serves God, what are the angels for, in judaism?( asking you since you quoted it)

Satan is an angel in Judaism, so I'd guess just doing other things God tells them to do.

I'll defer to Jewish members, though, since I don't practise it. I'm only echoing what I've been told and heard from Jewish members. :rainbow1:

 

[Orias]

Another interesting concept I've encountered with Christians I think worth discussing. Many I've spoken to say "Satan has religions". Apparently, Satan isn't happy merely defying god, but also wants to imitate god by formulating his own religions.

Those who bring this idea forth claim that Satan and his demons create religions in which they play gods and give their followers half truths about goodness and salvation, but never the entire that they claim Christianity offers.

What do you think of this idea?

I think it's just a topic made for people to droll over mindlessly.

They may be oblivious as to what Satanism actually, but I give them merit for understanding that their back is being observed with fork and knife.

 

[Pegg]

By doing as he is told.
Satan just has a job you don't want to be on the receiving end of.

why would God give Satan a job to do, then punish him with eternal damnation for doing it?

If Satan was really acting out of obedience to God, then surely it would mean he was doing the right thing and not the wrong thing....yet God is going to punish him???

sounds like someone has their wires crossed lol

Satan is an angel in Judaism, so I'd guess just doing other things God tells them to do.

of course he is...he is the same in christianity too
2 Corinthians 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light

he is an angel of God who rebelled. Still an angel, just a very bad one.

 

[England my lionheart]

really! How does he serve God then? And if he's the one who serves God, what are the angels for, in judaism?( asking you since you quoted it)

Christianity and Islam portrayal of Satan is nothing like the original,Satan never rebelled and wasn't cast down into Hell,Satan has a job to do and is actually haSatan which i think means challenger,his job job is to make choosing good over evil enough of a challenge so that it means something worthwhile,i think thats the gist of it.

 

[ellenjanuary]

Satan has religions? I got toes...

 

[Breathe]

why would God give Satan a job to do, then punish him with eternal damnation for doing it?

No such thing in Judaism.

If Satan was really acting out of obedience to God, then surely it would mean he was doing the right thing and not the wrong thing....yet God is going to punish him???

Not in Judaism.

 

[McBell]

why would God give Satan a job to do, then punish him with eternal damnation for doing it?

Because the lord works in mysterious ways.

If Satan was really acting out of obedience to God, then surely it would mean he was doing the right thing and not the wrong thing....yet God is going to punish him???

You seem to be making some rather interesting assumptions.
Do you know the inner workings of your deities mind?
Do you know the inner workings of their (god and the satan) relationship?
You seem to be privy to all manner of information that is not revealed in the Bible.

sounds like someone has their wires crossed lol

Sounds like someone is making assumptions in order to help their puffery...

he is an angel of God who rebelled. Still an angel, just a very bad one.

So claims the YHWH propaganda machine...

 

[Pegg]

You seem to be making some rather interesting assumptions.
Do you know the inner workings of your deities mind?
Do you know the inner workings of their (god and the satan) relationship?
You seem to be privy to all manner of information that is not revealed in the Bible.

I dont understand how the information contained in the bible is so easily missed by so many.
There is more then enough information in there to understand who Satan is and how God feels about him.

 

[McBell]

I dont understand how the information contained in the bible is so easily missed by so many.
There is more then enough information in there to understand who Satan is and how God feels about him.

I did not over look the fact that you completely skirted the questions.