Saudi school lessons in UK concern government

[croak]

Could it not also be like saying two *insert minority group here* are not allowed to have sex?

I'm moreso playing devil's advocate. Technically it's not outright saying that, but it would be implied. Does implication equal hate speech?

 

[Panda]

I'm moreso playing devil's advocate. Technically it's not outright saying that, but it would be implied. Does implication equal hate speech?

Well no it is saying that. The minority group in question is gay people. If two gay men can not have sex then you are specifically targeting that minority.

 

[croak]

Well no it is saying that. The minority group in question is gay people. If two gay men can not have sex then you are specifically targeting that minority.

Reading the description of a hate crime, it seems like this could indeed fall under it. At what point does it become a criminal offence, though?

 

[Alceste]

Couldn't you have gay sex though and not be a homosexual?

Yes, just as you could wear a hijab and pray five times a day to Allah and not be a Muslim. Nevertheless, making the "crime" of hijab-wearing and praying to Allah punishable by death would restrict the religious liberties of Muslims only, and of nobody who is not a Muslim.

If you are having consensual sex with a person of the same sex of your own free will, you're either bi, gay or so unusual as to be statistically insignificant. Likewise, if you are wearing Muslim religious clothing and praying five times a day to Allah, you are either a Muslim or so unusual as to be statistically insignificant.

Therefore, whether you are murdering people for their innate characteristics (for example, Muslim ethnic heritage or homosexuality), or for behaviors practiced only by those with the innate characteristics of a minority (for example praying to Allah or sleeping with a same sex partner), you are guilty of targeting a minority with your hate speech and may be fined or imprisoned.

And since, as I'm assuming, such a punishment would require four witnesses to the act...

I'll just cut you off there. This is an example of you trying to make this story more palatable to yourself by making up fictional details that have not been provided in the story. If you can back up these claims with evidence, I'll be happy to discuss whether or not they change anything.

 

[Alceste]

Reading the description of a hate crime, it seems like this could indeed fall under it. At what point does it become a criminal offence, though?

That is for a court to decide.

 

[kai]

Ok!

So if in Islamic law people committing homosexual acts with four witnesses testifying against them would be punished by death is a fact, can it be taught in Islamic schools or is it hate speech?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Ok!

So if in Islamic law people committing homosexual acts with four witnesses testifying against them would be punished by death is a fact, can it be taught in Islamic schools or is it hate speech?

The fact that a view or religious law is "Official" does not stop it coming under the hate laws. There are no let outs.

 

[croak]

I'll just cut you off there. This is an example of you trying to make this story more palatable to yourself by making up fictional details that have not been provided in the story. If you can back up these claims with evidence, I'll be happy to discuss whether or not they change anything.

I'm not trying to make it more palatable by making things up. My point is, according to Sharia law, there should be four witnesses. For all I know, they might have kept that detail out. Sure. I'm talking about what one would expect would be in a book taught to Muslims.

My personal view? So long as they aren't encouraging people to go out and take the law into their own hands, and simply stating what some scholars think, it shouldn't be classified under a hate crime. However, it should be restricted to, say, teenagers, who don't soak up everything they hear like children do. In this specific case, though, it seems the way they presented it, and some of the fictional ideas they added in (sounded like they may have taken the Protocols for truth), I cannot agree with.

Take talking about how skinheads believe in the purity of the White race and all that. If you are in a Social Studies class and the topic is about, say, racism, or European movements, or something like that, I don't think it would be a hate crime to mention their views. However, if the teacher starts telling students, "You know, those blacks are like animals," that's crossing the line, and that would be a hate crime.

I hope my position's clearer.

 

[Meow Mix]

Darkness, what if such statements were taught to Muslim children in a private school: "...adultery is a crime and it deserves a legal penalty." or such one "According to Islamic Shari'a, adultery is a crime so as homosexual sex and the legal penalties for them is this and that including execution"? Should people be jailed for this?

Are you in support of having a state that would murder homosexuals?

I mean, I get the difference between an act and an orientation.

Just curious, because in such a state I would be killed. What an awful place to wish for, IMO. If that's Islamic Shari'a then I hope it's never implemented in the same sense that I hope Nazism is never again implemented for the sake of the poor people who live there that would be murdered for petty things that shouldn't even be crimes. Normally there is an outcry when something is compared to Nazism because it's said it's an extreme comparison, but in this case we're indeed talking about two systems that murder people for who they are -- I'd call them pretty equal if that's the case.

 

[Alceste]

Ok!

So if in Islamic law people committing homosexual acts with four witnesses testifying against them would be punished by death is a fact, can it be taught in Islamic schools or is it hate speech?

It's hate speech IF it is explicitly or implicitly endorsed. There's a difference between saying "Some people think homosexuals should be murdered" and saying "Homosexuals should be murdered." An Islamic school teaching on the subject of Islam would need to be extremely careful to avoid the appearance of endorsing such views as right and proper.

 

[beenie]

i have a hard time understanding why any government needs to be in bedroom affairs anyway, and i can't justify killing or punishing anyone for consensual sex.
there should be a difference between civil crimes and spiritual ones. why kill for s spiritual crime as long as no one is hurt?

 

[kai]

It's hate speech IF it is explicitly or implicitly endorsed. There's a difference between saying "Some people think homosexuals should be murdered" and saying "Homosexuals should be murdered." An Islamic school teaching on the subject of Islam would need to be extremely careful to avoid the appearance of endorsing such views as right and proper.

Ok but i dont think these schools are teaching about Islam from a detached point of view , they are teaching Muslims Islam.They are endorsing sharia hud punishments.

 

[kai]

i have a hard time understanding why any government needs to be in bedroom affairs anyway, and i can't justify killing or punishing anyone for consensual sex.
there should be a difference between civil crimes and spiritual ones. why kill for s spiritual crime as long as no one is hurt?

I dont see why God needs to be in bedroom affairs.

Spiritual crimes? theres the problem right there!

 

[Father Heathen]

i have a hard time understanding why any government needs to be in bedroom affairs anyway, and i can't justify killing or punishing anyone for consensual sex.
there should be a difference between civil crimes and spiritual ones. why kill for s spiritual crime as long as no one is hurt?

Right. I say let man enforce man's law, and let god enforce god's law.

 

[TashaN]

What the heck is going on in this country?


One of the text books asks children to list the "reprehensible" qualities of Jewish people. A text for younger children asks what happens to someone who dies who is not a believer in Islam - the answer given in the text book is "hellfire".

Another text describes the punishment for gay sex as death and states a difference of opinion about whether it should be carried out by stoning, burning with fire or throwing the person over a cliff.

In a book for 14-year-olds, Sharia law and its punishment for theft are explained, including detailed diagrams about how hands and feet of thieves are amputated.


BBC News - Saudi school lessons in UK concern government

From article: In a written response, the Saudi embassy said such materials were often taken out of context and often referred to historical descriptions.

 

[kai]

From article: In a written response, the Saudi embassy said such materials were often taken out of context and often referred to historical descriptions.

Then they should have known better shouldnt they? Its one thing when non muslims take it out of context but quite another when Islamic teachers do the same.

 

[beenie]

I dont see why God needs to be in bedroom affairs.

Spiritual crimes? theres the problem right there!

kai, i'm using "spriritual crimes" with the impression that there is an afterlife, and that God will judge based on what He considers a crime. homosexuality (and adultery) goes against the teachings of most religions, but i'm arguing that there shouldn't necessarily be a punishment for simply being and living as a homosexual. what God does, He does. people shouldn't be punished for crimes against God (except for by Him is that's his will) does that make sense?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

kai, i'm using "spriritual crimes" with the impression that there is an afterlife, and that God will judge based on what He considers a crime. homosexuality (and adultery) goes against the teachings of most religions, but i'm arguing that there shouldn't necessarily be a punishment for simply being and living as a homosexual. what God does, He does. people shouldn't be punished for crimes against God (except for by Him is that's his will) does that make sense?

Honestly ssainhu, I cannot tell you how refreshing it is to hear these opinions from a moderate Muslim. It's one thing for people to disagree about spirituality, those can be fun discussions; but I feel this unbridgeable gulf of difference between myself and people who believe human governments should be God's enforcers on earth, and this seems to be a more common view at the moment within your faith than within other faiths.

 

[TashaN]

kai, i'm using "spriritual crimes" with the impression that there is an afterlife, and that God will judge based on what He considers a crime. homosexuality (and adultery) goes against the teachings of most religions, but i'm arguing that there shouldn't necessarily be a punishment for simply being and living as a homosexual. what God does, He does. people shouldn't be punished for crimes against God (except for by Him is that's his will) does that make sense?

Then what is the point in sending Prophets if we human beings could do just fine with man-made laws?

Your statement goes against the universality of the message of Islam. most of the western world want to impose or advertise at least their secular systems and values and i don't blame them because these are their values in life. Nevertheless, we Muslims believe in the unseen and we don't necessarily have to understand certain laws in order to enforce them, because we believe in the revelation.

 

[kai]

kai, i'm using "spriritual crimes" with the impression that there is an afterlife, and that God will judge based on what He considers a crime. homosexuality (and adultery) goes against the teachings of most religions, but i'm arguing that there shouldn't necessarily be a punishment for simply being and living as a homosexual. what God does, He does. people shouldn't be punished for crimes against God (except for by Him is that's his will) does that make sense?

Yep it makes sense and fair play to you ssainhu. i like your style.