Saved By Grace Or Saved By Works?

[Kenny]

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EVIDENCE FOR GRACE

Romans 11:6
6 And if he chose them by grace, then it is not what they have done that made them his people. If they could be made his people by what they did, his gift of grace would not really be a gift.

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us because of his mercy, not because of any good things we did. He saved us through the washing that made us new people. He saved us by making us new through the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. 9 You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about.

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EVIDENCE FOR WORKS

Romans 2: 4-11
4 God has been kind to you. He has been very patient, waiting for you to change. But you think nothing of his kindness. Maybe you don’t understand that God is kind to you so that you will decide to change your lives.
5 But you are so stubborn! You refuse to change. So you are making your own punishment greater and greater. You will be punished on the day when God will show his anger. On that day everyone will see how right God is to judge people. 6 [God] will reward or punish everyone for what they have done. 7 Some people live for God’s glory, for honor, and for life that cannot be destroyed. They live for those things by always continuing to do good. God will give eternal life to them. 8 But others are selfish and refuse to follow truth. They follow evil. God will show his anger and punish them. 9 He will give trouble and suffering to everyone who does evil—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 10 But he will give glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 11 God judges everyone the same. It doesn’t matter who they are.

James 2:14-17
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 We must all stand before Christ to be judged. Everyone will get what they should. They will be paid for whatever they did—good or bad—when they lived in this earthly body.​

So, which is it, and why?

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You are saved by grace and you are rewarded by works.

 

[Skwim]

You are saved by grace and you are rewarded by works.

So is my reward the same as being saved?

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[Kenny]

So is my reward the same as being saved?

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No... those are two different things.

Salvation is what Jesus did (free to receive as He paid for it) - rewards are what we have done - like in the book of James.

1 Corinthians 3:11-13 New King James Version (NKJV)
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is.

So, everyone has works which is put up in a big heap.

wood, hay, and straw... that which we did for ourselves, things that were good but to make us look good and not Him, prayers that were for human ears and not God's, and things like unto those. Gold, silver and precious stones are those things we did out of love and for His name sake.

This isn't "literal" but giving understanding by parable. He blows His torch and it is revealed that which was done right and He rewards accordingly.

 

[whirlingmerc]

We call it “undeserved kindness” on God’s part. “Grace” has become a word that excuses sin for many in Christendom. (which is why we avoid it) God will never forgive wilful and deliberate sin just because humans want to take advantage of an imagined “insurance” policy that they made up to cover the fact that they love to sin.

The choosing of the 144,000 has nothing to do with humans volunteering to go to heaven based on any works they have performed. When Jesus walked the earth, we believe that standing firmly for the faith in spite of the prevailing attitude against it is what determines the caliber of a person’s dedication to God. The "works" therefore are actions motivated by faith. They are a demonstration of a person's faith.

We do not see Jesus Christ as a deity, but as a servant of his Father sent from heaven on a rescue mission. Sin is the cause of death and according to Genesis, was never supposed to happen, so right there in the garden, God made known the framework of this mission, (Genesis 3:15) though much of the detail remained a mystery until Messiah came and the details unfolded to reveal the role that Messiah would perform....giving his life as a “ransom” for the human race alienated from God due to the disobedience of Adam.

“Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life”, meant that an equivalent life was needed to offset the perfect law of God. Just as the mandated sacrifices in Israel satisfied God’s justice temporarily, Christ’s sacrifice would do so permanently.

Since no human was the equivalent of the once perfect man Adam, God sent his most trusted representative to offer the equivalent sacrifice for all humanity. But not all would accept the terms. It requires something from us....our love and loyalty to our God and obedience to his commands.....along with a definite and determined effort not to sin deliberately.And if we lapsed for some reason, there was a permanent basis to forgive us.



That kind of salvation is not what Jesus accomplished. He paid a price that releases the redeemed human race from the curse of sin, forever. There will never be a need for sacrifices again.

Adamic sin is removed forever, but death will still be the penalty for deliberate sin.....the abuse of free will that was seen in the garden of Eden. All three rebels were once perfect as God had made them, but a self-serving spirit in them led them to abuse their free will and disobey their Creator....leading to the stated penalty...death. Humans were supposed to live unending lives in paradise here on earth, but Adam robbed his children of that opportunity....Christ came to give us back what was taken from us. That is what salvation means to us.....we are “saved” from God’s final judgment on disobedient humanity.

What God purposed in the beginning will be accomplished at the end. (Isaiah 55:11)



We do need merits, but our personal merits would never be enough because the price of redemption was higher than anyone could ever pay. Jesus gave us the means to be reconciled with God by removing the cause of sin, paying the price to set us free from it forever. I am grateful every day for that provision.



What then is “the great day of God the Almighty” foretold by the prophets, according to Jewish belief?



Just to be clear...JW’s hold virtually no beliefs in common with Christendom. We see Jesus as Jewish and as one who led the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” out of a corrupted system of worship, and into a clean and uncorrupted one. We believe that he inaugurated the foretold “new covenant” and that God’s first purpose for his earth and all of his creation will return to his original plan because of what he accomplished for all humanity.

There is no doubt that God loved the Jewish nation, because of his affection for Abraham, but like any parent with wayward sons, he did not like their conduct. And we believe that the time came when his patience ran out. Once he had produced the Messiah, his part of the covenant with Israel was fulfilled. Why put up with these "stiff necked people" any longer? (Exodus 32:7-10; Deuteronomy 9:6)

True to his promise to Abraham, we see that now it matters little what nation you belong to.....because “all nations” were going to be blessed through the seed of Abraham, which we believe is the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

I would see being saved by grace through faith as a way of glorifying God through man's dependence on God.

And of course Abraham was made righteous though his faith. Even as the scriptures lead up to Isaiah 53 God throws out a question in Isaiah 51 asking how Abraham became righteous and the answer from Genesis 15 was 'Abraham believed God and it was counted as rightousness'

 

[Deeje]

I would see being saved by grace through faith as a way of glorifying God through man's dependence on God.

If only everyone showed that dependence.

Too many want to dictate the terms of their lives to God, rather than have God dictate the terms to them. He would never mislead us or lie to us. His way is the only way to ultimate success in what God originally purposed for us....everlasting life right here on a paradise earth, not in heaven. The offer of life in heaven was given to a few who would feature prominently in man's eventual reconciliation with God. Jesus laid the groundwork...the rest is up to us.

And of course Abraham was made righteous though his faith. Even as the scriptures lead up to Isaiah 53 God throws out a question in Isaiah 51 asking how Abraham became righteous and the answer from Genesis 15 was 'Abraham believed God and it was counted as rightousness'

This is an important point I think.....Abraham showed his faith in God by willingly offering his precious son when he was asked to do so. God did not require Abraham to perform a human sacrifice of course, but he saw his willingness to obey his God, even when he did not fully understand God's instructions.

James 2: 20-24....
"But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend.

24 You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone."

Here is why...Paul wrote at Hebrews 11:17-19.....
"By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac—the man who had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up his only-begotten son— 18 although it had been said to him: “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 19 But he reasoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead, and he did receive him from there in an illustrative way."

It was Abraham's faith in the resurrection that allowed him to entertain the thought of carrying out the unthinkable thing that God had asked of him. Not only did God prevent him from taking Isaac's life, but he showed us illustratively how difficult it was for God to offer the life of his precious son as well.

The whole scenario was one of willing obedience not only on the part of Abraham but on the part of Isaac as well, who was a strong young man who could easily have overpowered his aging father and fled the scene. He meekly acceded to his father's wishes and offered no resistance. The lessons are beautiful....

 

[Tumah]

We call it “undeserved kindness” on God’s part. “Grace” has become a word that excuses sin for many in Christendom. (which is why we avoid it) God will never forgive wilful and deliberate sin just because humans want to take advantage of an imagined “insurance” policy that they made up to cover the fact that they love to sin.

My understanding of the Christian concept of grace is that it was undeserved kindness: Christians believe humans can never deserve anything, so being chosen to get into heaven was completely a matter of their god's discretion. It could be my understanding of the Christian concept is faulty.

The choosing of the 144,000 has nothing to do with humans volunteering to go to heaven based on any works they have performed. When Jesus walked the earth, we believe that standing firmly for the faith in spite of the prevailing attitude against it is what determines the caliber of a person’s dedication to God.

I didn't mean to say that human would volunteer for it, just the opposite, that the selection is completely out of human hands.
Does this mean you believe that only 144,000 over 2,000 years (although it occurs to me that perhaps the time frame is believed to be much smaller, since JW's haven't been around for that long) will have stood faithfully enough against prevailing attitudes?

The "works" therefore are actions motivated by faith. They are a demonstration of a person's faith.

Are you narrowing the definition of works specifically to things that demonstrate a person's faith or are you explaining that works are always an expression of a person's faith.

We do not see Jesus Christ as a deity, but as a servant of his Father sent from heaven on a rescue mission. Sin is the cause of death and according to Genesis, was never supposed to happen, so right there in the garden, God made known the framework of this mission, (Genesis 3:15) though much of the detail remained a mystery until Messiah came and the details unfolded to reveal the role that Messiah would perform....giving his life as a “ransom” for the human race alienated from God due to the disobedience of Adam.

“Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life”, meant that an equivalent life was needed to offset the perfect law of God. Just as the mandated sacrifices in Israel satisfied God’s justice temporarily, Christ’s sacrifice would do so permanently.

Since no human was the equivalent of the once perfect man Adam, God sent his most trusted representative to offer the equivalent sacrifice for all humanity. But not all would accept the terms. It requires something from us....our love and loyalty to our God and obedience to his commands.....along with a definite and determined effort not to sin deliberately.And if we lapsed for some reason, there was a permanent basis to forgive us.

I'm more or less familiar with the Christian belief here.

That kind of salvation is not what Jesus accomplished. He paid a price that releases the redeemed human race from the curse of sin, forever. There will never be a need for sacrifices again.

Adamic sin is removed forever, but death will still be the penalty for deliberate sin.....the abuse of free will that was seen in the garden of Eden. All three rebels were once perfect as God had made them, but a self-serving spirit in them led them to abuse their free will and disobey their Creator....leading to the stated penalty...death. Humans were supposed to live unending lives in paradise here on earth, but Adam robbed his children of that opportunity....Christ came to give us back what was taken from us. That is what salvation means to us.....we are “saved” from God’s final judgment on disobedient humanity.

What God purposed in the beginning will be accomplished at the end. (Isaiah 55:11)

We do need merits, but our personal merits would never be enough because the price of redemption was higher than anyone could ever pay. Jesus gave us the means to be reconciled with God by removing the cause of sin, paying the price to set us free from it forever. I am grateful every day for that provision.

So you're saying that on the one hand, you believe that Adam and Co. sinned by abusing his free will and disobeying G-d. The effect of that was to cause all of humanity to die. No one could ever stop that effect because you believe G-d set the bail too high. So everyone died. Jesus for some reason had the capital to pay the bail, ending the cause of sin (presumably the ability to abuse one's free will and disobey G-d). On the other hand, despite all that, death remains the penalty for sin, so everybody still dies.
I'm not really sure I see the point then.

What then is “the great day of God the Almighty” foretold by the prophets, according to Jewish belief?

The day that everything in heaven and earth is judged for the final time, to determine the state (or lack thereof) of their final existence.

Just to be clear...JW’s hold virtually no beliefs in common with Christendom. We see Jesus as Jewish and as one who led the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” out of a corrupted system of worship, and into a clean and uncorrupted one. We believe that he inaugurated the foretold “new covenant” and that God’s first purpose for his earth and all of his creation will return to his original plan because of what he accomplished for all humanity.

There is no doubt that God loved the Jewish nation, because of his affection for Abraham, but like any parent with wayward sons, he did not like their conduct. And we believe that the time came when his patience ran out. Once he had produced the Messiah, his part of the covenant with Israel was fulfilled. Why put up with these "stiff necked people" any longer? (Exodus 32:7-10; Deuteronomy 9:6)

True to his promise to Abraham, we see that now it matters little what nation you belong to.....because “all nations” were going to be blessed through the seed of Abraham, which we believe is the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

Other than the 144,000 and Jesus not being a deity, I'm almost certain that everything else you said here - including what you go on to explain after stating that JW's hold virtually no beliefs in common with Christendom - are more or less commonly held beliefs in Christendom. At least that's the impression I've gotten from speaking to Christians here over the years.

 

[Deeje]

My understanding of the Christian concept of grace is that it was undeserved kindness: Christians believe humans can never deserve anything, so being chosen to get into heaven was completely a matter of their god's discretion. It could be my understanding of the Christian concept is faulty.

Virtually all of Christendom believes that every good Christian will go to heaven.....the bad people will go to "hell".
I have no idea where they get that idea but its not from scripture.....its what they wish to read into scripture. It makes no sense to me.....never did.

God's purpose first stated in Genesis had no reason for anyone to go to heaven....no reason for Messiah to come....no reason for God's Kingdom to be established on earth......because if the first humans had remained obedient, none of us would be in this predicament called life and death. We would have been ruled by our God all along with no sin causing us any problems.

I didn't mean to say that human would volunteer for it, just the opposite, that the selection is completely out of human hands.

Yes, the choosing of the ruling class is out of human hands, but that doesn't mean we need no qualifications....otherwise why was the Law given? God has expectations of us, just as we have expectations of him. It is a mutually agreeable relationship. Just as God made covenants with Israel, he has made an agreement with all mankind...to keep living requires that we keep his laws.

Does this mean you believe that only 144,000 over 2,000 years (although it occurs to me that perhaps the time frame is believed to be much smaller, since JW's haven't been around for that long) will have stood faithfully enough against prevailing attitudes?

The ones who will rule with Jesus in heaven have been selected since he first chose his apostles. These make up the foundations of the heavenly Kingdom. Others would be added as time went on, but Jesus also foretold that an apostasy would take place among his followers, just as we believe it took place in Judaism. Men would put man-made traditions in the place of Bible truth and twist them "to their own destruction" according to the apostle Peter.

That was the birth of Christendom....a fake kind of "Christianity" that Jesus said would be sown in the same field as "the sons of the Kingdom". These 'pretend' Christians have dominated man's thinking for the best part of 2,000 years, surfacing out of weakened Christianity and substituting a fusion of pagan Roman sun worship with some bits of Christianity......making the selection of faithful ones very difficult indeed. But true to prophesy, Daniel foretold that at "the time of the end" God would "cleanse" for himself a people who would be 'whitened and refined' so as to carry his truth to mankind before God stepped in to bring in the rulership of his Kingdom and to hold the world to an accounting. (Daniel 2:44; Daniel 12:4; 9-10) The apostasy would not prevent the truth from being preached.

Are you narrowing the definition of works specifically to things that demonstrate a person's faith or are you explaining that works are always an expression of a person's faith.

Using Abraham as an example (as the Bible does) his faith was backed up by his works or actions. Going back to Eden we see the opposite.....a lack of faith, not backed up by works. What is the difference between Adam and Abraham? One took his faith to the nth degree whereas the other didn't take it anywhere....and then blamed everyone else for his failure.

So you're saying that on the one hand, you believe that Adam and Co. sinned by abusing his free will and disobeying G-d. The effect of that was to cause all of humanity to die. No one could ever stop that effect because you believe G-d set the bail too high. So everyone died. Jesus for some reason had the capital to pay the bail, ending the cause of sin (presumably the ability to abuse one's free will and disobey G-d). On the other hand, despite all that, death remains the penalty for sin, so everybody still dies.
I'm not really sure I see the point then.

Put like that, I can see the reason for your confusion....

"Sin" is an archery term for "missing the mark" (as you probably know) so right at the beginning, Adam and his wife 'missed the mark' by disobeying a direct command of their God. The penalty was death, and as soon as the first humans disobeyed, they started to die. It was a slow process going from perfection to death. They 'unplugged' from the divine source of life and passed that condition onto their children. Adam paid for his sin with his own life, but there was no one to atone for his children, sold into slavery to sin and death through no fault of their own. So this was the role that Jesus filled....the redeemer....the only one who had the exact payment.

Nothing God does is according to earth time. The Creator is a timeless Being and so he operates in Universal time. Death still claims us it is true, but but 2000 years is not long at all to him. We have the resurrection to look forward to when all in their graves will hear Jesus' voice and come out to life on a new earth. Then death due to Adam's sin will be conquered forever....and we can get back to God's original purpose for his earthly creation.

The day that everything in heaven and earth is judged for the final time, to determine the state (or lack thereof) of their final existence.

Can you elaborate on that a bit? What comes before and after the event? Do you have an idea of when to expect this "day"? Who will survive it? Who will not?

Other than the 144,000 and Jesus not being a deity, I'm almost certain that everything else you said here - including what you go on to explain after stating that JW's hold virtually no beliefs in common with Christendom - are more or less commonly held beliefs in Christendom. At least that's the impression I've gotten from speaking to Christians here over the years.

As one who was a former member of Christendom's church system, I can vouch for the fact that JW's hold very little in common with them. The difference to me was amazing...chalk and cheese.

We do not believe that all good Christians go to heaven....nor do we believe in a hell of fiery torment. We do not hold belief in life after death (an immortal soul) except by resurrection....either to heaven for the ruling class, or to earth as their subjects. We reject the trinity as blasphemous, and we have no earthly priesthood. We do not have paid clergy either. Everyone in our brotherhood is an unpaid volunteer.

There is no ritual or formal rites or liturgy practiced, nor any repetitious prayers.....if someone comes to a meeting of Jehovah's Witnesses, they just bring a Bible and we study it, either through discourses given each week by a visiting speaker, or through an interactive meeting where all can participate and share their knowledge and research with the rest of the congregation. Or through training for our ministry in which we all participate, including our children....but no one is born a JW.....when a child is of age (a level of maturity that is not determined by age) they have to decide for themselves whether they want to serve God as a disciple of Jesus Christ or not. Only then are they baptized as members of the congregation. We have no infant baptism.

So there is not a lot that we share with them.

 

[Tumah]

Virtually all of Christendom believes that every good Christian will go to heaven.....the bad people will go to "hell".
I have no idea where they get that idea but its not from scripture.....its what they wish to read into scripture. It makes no sense to me.....never did.

I'll have to take your word for it, being as I don't know that much about Christian theologies and doctrines.

God's purpose first stated in Genesis had no reason for anyone to go to heaven....no reason for Messiah to come....no reason for God's Kingdom to be established on earth......because if the first humans had remained obedient, none of us would be in this predicament called life and death. We would have been ruled by our God all along with no sin causing us any problems.

That's an interesting take. Is that specific to JW's?

Yes, the choosing of the ruling class is out of human hands, but that doesn't mean we need no qualifications....otherwise why was the Law given? God has expectations of us, just as we have expectations of him. It is a mutually agreeable relationship. Just as God made covenants with Israel, he has made an agreement with all mankind...to keep living requires that we keep his laws.

So once you have the qualifications, you don't need to rely on salvation. Or to put it another way, you've saved yourself by making the effort to gain the qualifications.

The ones who will rule with Jesus in heaven have been selected since he first chose his apostles. These make up the foundations of the heavenly Kingdom. Others would be added as time went on, but Jesus also foretold that an apostasy would take place among his followers, just as we believe it took place in Judaism. Men would put man-made traditions in the place of Bible truth and twist them "to their own destruction" according to the apostle Peter.

That was the birth of Christendom....a fake kind of "Christianity" that Jesus said would be sown in the same field as "the sons of the Kingdom". These 'pretend' Christians have dominated man's thinking for the best part of 2,000 years, surfacing out of weakened Christianity and substituting a fusion of pagan Roman sun worship with some bits of Christianity......making the selection of faithful ones very difficult indeed. But true to prophesy, Daniel foretold that at "the time of the end" God would "cleanse" for himself a people who would be 'whitened and refined' so as to carry his truth to mankind before God stepped in to bring in the rulership of his Kingdom and to hold the world to an accounting. (Daniel 2:44; Daniel 12:4; 9-10) The apostasy would not prevent the truth from being preached.

I think it was just the first line that related to my question. So I'll ignore the rest unless it become relevant. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the 144,000 are not the sum total of people making it to heaven, they're just the one's chosen to rule everyone else there?

Using Abraham as an example (as the Bible does) his faith was backed up by his works or actions. Going back to Eden we see the opposite.....a lack of faith, not backed up by works. What is the difference between Adam and Abraham? One took his faith to the nth degree whereas the other didn't take it anywhere....and then blamed everyone else for his failure.

So your answer is that works is an expression of faith?

Put like that, I can see the reason for your confusion....

"Sin" is an archery term for "missing the mark" (as you probably know) so right at the beginning, Adam and his wife 'missed the mark' by disobeying a direct command of their God. The penalty was death, and as soon as the first humans disobeyed, they started to die. It was a slow process going from perfection to death. They 'unplugged' from the divine source of life and passed that condition onto their children. Adam paid for his sin with his own life, but there was no one to atone for his children, sold into slavery to sin and death through no fault of their own. So this was the role that Jesus filled....the redeemer....the only one who had the exact payment.

Nothing God does is according to earth time. The Creator is a timeless Being and so he operates in Universal time. Death still claims us it is true, but but 2000 years is not long at all to him. We have the resurrection to look forward to when all in their graves will hear Jesus' voice and come out to life on a new earth. Then death due to Adam's sin will be conquered forever....and we can get back to God's original purpose for his earthly creation.

I'm not sure I understand how this response is meant to clear my confusion. You've explained more clearly your understanding of sin. You've not explained any more or less clearly why Jesus was the only one who had enough cash on hand. And you haven't said anything that would be explained by your explanation on time.

What was confusing is that you claimed that Jesus ended "Adamic" sin - abusing free-will and disobeying G-d - giving back eternal life. No one could stop dying because of Adam's sin, because the bail was too high. Jesus paid the bail by some unknown means. But people still die because they are abusing free-will and disobeying G-d just like Adam did. So there doesn't seem to be any detectable change caused by Jesus.

Maybe you didn't mean that Jesus ended humanity's ability to abuse their free-will and disobey G-d, the cause of Adam's sin. Maybe you meant that he ended the effect of Adam's having done so and that each person subsequently does the same thing Adam did and has to die anew. This makes it possible for the 144,000 people (or more, I'm still not sure about your doctrine) to live eternally.

Can you elaborate on that a bit? What comes before and after the event? Do you have an idea of when to expect this "day"? Who will survive it? Who will not?

As I mentioned before, before the "Great Day of G-d" is the Resurrection of the Dead. According to the opinions I could find, the Resurrection happens towards the end of the Messianic Age. I expect it to be pretty scary. The people who strove to fulfill G-d's will win their cases and everyone else won't.

As one who was a former member of Christendom's church system, I can vouch for the fact that JW's hold very little in common with them. The difference to me was amazing...chalk and cheese.

We do not believe that all good Christians go to heaven....nor do we believe in a hell of fiery torment. We do not hold belief in life after death (an immortal soul) except by resurrection....either to heaven for the ruling class, or to earth as their subjects. We reject the trinity as blasphemous, and we have no earthly priesthood. We do not have paid clergy either. Everyone in our brotherhood is an unpaid volunteer.

There is no ritual or formal rites or liturgy practiced, nor any repetitious prayers.....if someone comes to a meeting of Jehovah's Witnesses, they just bring a Bible and we study it, either through discourses given each week by a visiting speaker, or through an interactive meeting where all can participate and share their knowledge and research with the rest of the congregation. Or through training for our ministry in which we all participate, including our children....but no one is born a JW.....when a child is of age (a level of maturity that is not determined by age) they have to decide for themselves whether they want to serve God as a disciple of Jesus Christ or not. Only then are they baptized as members of the congregation. We have no infant baptism.

So there is not a lot that we share with them.

I'll have to take your word for it, then. I'll just assume that you have some things in common (like those mentioned in the previous post) and some things not in common (like those mentioned here).

 

[Notthedarkweb]

Namaste. Welcome to RF. Please write a short description of the NyAya Darshan (philosophy) in the Theology folder of the Hinduism DIR (Discuss Individual Religions).
After all Nyaya is one of the Shad Darshan - the 6 major Indian philosophies. I knew one other person who followed NyAya Darshan , not here though.

That being said, Parameshwar is best NyAyAdheesh, being lokAdhyaksha, dharmAdhyaksha, surAdhyaksha (VishNuSahasranAma)

So I have done! It might be slightly long, but considering the depth of the tradition, it was kinda required.

 

[Deeje]

God's purpose first stated in Genesis had no reason for anyone to go to heaven....no reason for Messiah to come....no reason for God's Kingdom to be established on earth......because if the first humans had remained obedient, none of us would be in this predicament called life and death. We would have been ruled by our God all along with no sin causing us any problems.

That's an interesting take. Is that specific to JW's?

It is what the Genesis Account says. Humans had the most idyllic start and there was no reason for sin to ever enter their lives. But a once faithful angel abused his free will in an attempt to secure worship for himself. Accordingly he lied to the woman to get her to entice the man...and it worked. All he needed to do was to separate the humans from their God and he had them. We become the slaves to those we obey.The humans lost their relationship with God that day, necessitating that he appoint a mediator for those humans who were faithful. We believe that mediator to be Jesus Christ...the principle angel of God who acted as his spokesman.

Who is the adversary who lied to the humans in Eden according to Jewish belief? Was he the same one who brought the trials on Job?

So once you have the qualifications, you don't need to rely on salvation. Or to put it another way, you've saved yourself by making the effort to gain the qualifications.

Not even close. Unless you have your salvation guaranteed by the sacrificial blood of the true Passover Lamb, (whom we believe to be Jesus Christ) you will not be saved. And unless you have works to back up your faith in the saving power of his blood, you will not be saved either. You need both. Just as the Israelites had to physically put the blood of the Passover Lamb on their doorposts in order to be saved from the angel of death in Egypt, so their actions (works) saved them.

I think it was just the first line that related to my question. So I'll ignore the rest unless it become relevant. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the 144,000 are not the sum total of people making it to heaven, they're just the one's chosen to rule everyone else there?

No, I am not saying that at all.

The 144,000 are the "joint-heirs" with Christ in his heavenly Kingdom. 144,000 and one make up the governmental arrangement that will rule the redeemed ones of mankind on earth. Only 144,000 are taken to heaven as kings and priests. Kings need subjects and priests need sinners for whom to perform their priestly duties. Those in heaven will not rule over each other, and since they are perfected with a spiritual body, they are no longer in their sinful flesh, so they don't need priests to intercede for them.

You asked...."Does this mean you believe that only 144,000 over 2,000 years (although it occurs to me that perhaps the time frame is believed to be much smaller, since JW's haven't been around for that long) will have stood faithfully enough against prevailing attitudes?"
The answer to that is that this ruling class began to be gathered in the first century and the gathering was interrupted for centuries whilst a foretold apostasy took place in Christianity, which means that it was slim pickings during that time period. But in the "time of the end" prophesied by Daniel (the time we are living in now) the rest of the heavenly class would be gathered in this later time period from a spiritually cleansed people.

So your answer is that works is an expression of faith?

Abraham backed up his faith by his actions. Works is how you demonstrate your faith.

You've explained more clearly your understanding of sin. You've not explained any more or less clearly why Jesus was the only one who had enough cash on hand. And you haven't said anything that would be explained by your explanation on time.

I did explain before. God's law was "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life". To balance the scales of God's perfect justice, required equivalency. Adam lost a perfect (sinless) life for himself and paid with his own death, but no perfect life was found on earth to offer in recompense for the perfect (sinless) life that he lost for his children. So Jesus came from heaven to be born as a perfect (sinless) man and gave his life for ours. It was a beautiful act of love.

Maybe you didn't mean that Jesus ended humanity's ability to abuse their free-will and disobey G-d, the cause of Adam's sin. Maybe you meant that he ended the effect of Adam's having done so and that each person subsequently does the same thing Adam did and has to die anew. This makes it possible for the 144,000 people (or more, I'm still not sure about your doctrine) to live eternally.

Not even close again.
Jesus came to undo what Adam had done, but the effect was not immediate. Just as death came to him slowly (in human counting of time. He was 930 when he died) so the coming of Messiah was slow in arriving and the return he promised is also seemingly slow by the counting of human years, but God does not operate in earth time. All has taken place exactly as God said it would.....just not as quickly as we would have hoped.

Since the Jewish nation is still awaiting Messiah's first appearance, you should understand the time delay better than we do.

As I mentioned before, before the "Great Day of G-d" is the Resurrection of the Dead. According to the opinions I could find, the Resurrection happens towards the end of the Messianic Age. I expect it to be pretty scary. The people who strove to fulfill G-d's will win their cases and everyone else won't.

When is the Messianic age? I assume that you think its still a long way off?

How do you know that the "Resurrection of the Dead" takes place before that "Great Day of God"?

What are you expecting to happen? Why is it scary?
What do you think will happen to those who "win their case" as opposed to those who don't?

 

[Tumah]

It is what the Genesis Account says. Humans had the most idyllic start and there was no reason for sin to ever enter their lives. But a once faithful angel abused his free will in an attempt to secure worship for himself. Accordingly he lied to the woman to get her to entice the man...and it worked. All he needed to do was to separate the humans from their God and he had them. We become the slaves to those we obey.The humans lost their relationship with God that day, necessitating that he appoint a mediator for those humans who were faithful. We believe that mediator to be Jesus Christ...the principle angel of God who acted as his spokesman.

I'm not sure I would say that's what the Genesis account says. You're definitely adding a few ideas to what it actually says. But that doesn't detract from the interesting-ness of your interpretation.

Who is the adversary who lied to the humans in Eden according to Jewish belief? Was he the same one who brought the trials on Job?

I don't know if it was exactly the same guy. But definitely one of the angels who are part of that group.

Not even close. Unless you have your salvation guaranteed by the sacrificial blood of the true Passover Lamb, (whom we believe to be Jesus Christ) you will not be saved. And unless you have works to back up your faith in the saving power of his blood, you will not be saved either. You need both. Just as the Israelites had to physically put the blood of the Passover Lamb on their doorposts in order to be saved from the angel of death in Egypt, so their actions (works) saved them.

It seems like there might be a superfluous step in your explanation, but I also don't see the parallel. I don't think anyone would say that the Paschal lamb/kid saved them from death. The lamb/kid was the vehicle they were instructed to use in fulfilling the commandment that would save them. The lamb/kid took not active part in that process. So I see the "works" part, but I don't see the parallel that Jesus is supposed to parallel.

No, I am not saying that at all.

The 144,000 are the "joint-heirs" with Christ in his heavenly Kingdom. 144,000 and one make up the governmental arrangement that will rule the redeemed ones of mankind on earth. Only 144,000 are taken to heaven as kings and priests. Kings need subjects and priests need sinners for whom to perform their priestly duties. Those in heaven will not rule over each other, and since they are perfected with a spiritual body, they are no longer in their sinful flesh, so they don't need priests to intercede for them.

The general idea of what you're saying here was what I was saying though.

You asked...."Does this mean you believe that only 144,000 over 2,000 years (although it occurs to me that perhaps the time frame is believed to be much smaller, since JW's haven't been around for that long) will have stood faithfully enough against prevailing attitudes?"
The answer to that is that this ruling class began to be gathered in the first century and the gathering was interrupted for centuries whilst a foretold apostasy took place in Christianity, which means that it was slim pickings during that time period. But in the "time of the end" prophesied by Daniel (the time we are living in now) the rest of the heavenly class would be gathered in this later time period from a spiritually cleansed people.

So the 144k are just the rulers and priests who govern people on earth. I'm not sure I understand why it should be necessary and how that plays out practically speaking, but that doesn't really matter. The thing I don't get is that you said the 144k are going to be priests because there will be sinners. But presumably these sinners are going to be a from the spiritually cleansed people of the later time period.

Abraham backed up his faith by his actions. Works is how you demonstrate your faith.

I'll just take that as a yes.

I did explain before. God's law was "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life". To balance the scales of God's perfect justice, required equivalency. Adam lost a perfect (sinless) life for himself and paid with his own death, but no perfect life was found on earth to offer in recompense for the perfect (sinless) life that he lost for his children. So Jesus came from heaven to be born as a perfect (sinless) man and gave his life for ours. It was a beautiful act of love.

It looks like you are presenting two pieces to two different puzzles, so I'm not quite sure I get the point here. What exactly did Adam take away from G-d, that you claim Jesus compensated Him for? Based on your reasoning, I would have said that since G-d wanted Adam to live forever, but Adam forced His hand and he had to die, the compensation would be to have someone else live, not die.

Also by the way, if Adam can pass sin down to his kids, why can't every other parent?

Not even close again.
Jesus came to undo what Adam had done, but the effect was not immediate. Just as death came to him slowly (in human counting of time. He was 930 when he died) so the coming of Messiah was slow in arriving and the return he promised is also seemingly slow by the counting of human years, but God does not operate in earth time. All has taken place exactly as God said it would.....just not as quickly as we would have hoped.

Since the Jewish nation is still awaiting Messiah's first appearance, you should understand the time delay better than we do.

No, we're waiting the Messiah's only appearance and this time delay you are trying is not understandable from my point of view. G-d didn't kill Adam on the day he sinned and it just took 900+ years for him to die. He killed him on the day he died. Likewise, the Messiah has been delayed because we have yet to be worthy of his advent or to have fallen so low that he must immediately be sent. We don't believe that the Messiah has already done some action and we're simply waiting for the effect of that action to take place. According to your explanation, the action that you believe Jesus was meant to perform was already performed and it's the effect of the action that's delayed for some undisclosed reason.

When is the Messianic age? I assume that you think its still a long way off?

It's whenever the Messiah comes. The belief that the Messiah can come any day is one of the 13 principles of faith in Judaism.

How do you know that the "Resurrection of the Dead" takes place before that "Great Day of God"?

Presumably because Daniel 12:2 says that by the Resurrection some will go on for eternal life and others not. That suggests that some judgement will take place to determine who will go where.

What are you expecting to happen? Why is it scary?

I'm expecting almost everyone in heaven and earth to be judged for the final time. I'd say it's scary, because no one knows their potential and by extension if they fulfilled what was expected of them. And there's no more chances after that.

What do you think will happen to those who "win their case" as opposed to those who don't?

The ones who win go on to the World to Come and the one's who don't won't.

 

[1213]

.

So, which is it, and why?

.

Saved means person is saved from the judgment that comes because of sin. It means, sins are forgiven and person avoids the judgment. But, it is not the same as to have eternal life. It only gives a new beginning. After forgiveness, person should become righteous, because eternal life is for righteous. And if person is righteous, he does righteous actions and the actions show that person is righteous. Actions don’t save, but if you don’t have right actions, you are not righteous and then you don’t get the eternal life. And so, it is not about what you do, but what you are. If you are righteous, then you have eternal life. But, if you are now unrighteous, you can have your sins forgiven freely and repent and become righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

 

[Skwim]

Saved means person is saved from the judgment that comes because of sin. It means, sins are forgiven and person avoids the judgment.

And the most common meaning of salvation is to be saved by God from the consequences of our sins, which would be spending an eternity in hell.

But, it is not the same as to have eternal life.

I beg to differ, or at least your Bible does.

Matthew 25:31-46
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” . . . Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

Your eternal life will simply be in hell and not in heaven.


.

 

[Deeje]

I'm not sure I would say that's what the Genesis account says. You're definitely adding a few ideas to what it actually says. But that doesn't detract from the interesting-ness of your interpretation.

It is apparent to us that God did not create humans and put them on earth as some kind of training ground for heaven. He already had a spiritual family there who never needed to live on earth to qualify for a life that they already enjoyed.

The earth is designed to support abundant physical life and humankind alone were created to be a reflection of the Creator’s attributes, qualities and personality.....his ability to think ahead and plan his actions and to contemplate beforehand their imagined consequences or outcomes. No other creature on earth has the abilities that were bestowed on us. Free will was something no other creature possessed. All these operate by instinct...i.e. their actions are pre-programmed without the need to plan for tomorrow. They live in the moment and all their actions demonstrate that they are programmed to survive and reproduce their own kind without needing to actually think about much of it at all.

Humans alone were appointed as caretakers of this planet and given God’s attributes in order to represent him here and to take care of what he had made....indefinitely. Death was not to be for humans because even though they were mortal, God gave them the means to keep living forever in their mortal flesh without aging and without sickness taking their lives. There was no prohibition on partaking of "the tree of life" until their disobedience introduced sin into the world...then God barred the way to it. That is what made the penalty for taking the fruit so serious....they not only lost that ability for themselves, but also for their children. Death would now come to all alike...man and animal. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

I don't know if it was exactly the same guy. But definitely one of the angels who are part of that group.

So "the adversary" is not a single individual angel, but a group? Where does it indicate this in scripture? Surely he would have been described as "an adversary" if he was part of a group? But "THE adversary" seems to indicate an individual to me. This individual had an agenda and he was bold in his rebellion as it says in Job that he entered right in among the faithful angels that had taken their station before God.

I know that many people have concluded that the adversary "works" for God....and he does but not the way most people think. God is definitely using him to test us all out...but the devil has no good motives in what he does in his adversarial role. When God asked him......"Have you paid attention to My servant Job? For there is none like him on earth, a sincere and upright man, God-fearing and shunning evil", we believe that it was because God had already detected a wrong motive in his attention to Job. His responses indicate that he wanted to prove that humans only serve God out of self-interest. He said to God...."stretch forth Your hand and touch all that he has, will he not blaspheme You to Your face?" God is too righteous to bring calamity on a faithful person, but the adversary has no such compunction. None of Job's trials were brought by about God. Job is actually representing all of us.

The adversary is not doing anything except to try and separate faithful ones from their Creator. His motives are evil.

It seems like there might be a superfluous step in your explanation, but I also don't see the parallel. I don't think anyone would say that the Paschal lamb/kid saved them from death. The lamb/kid was the vehicle they were instructed to use in fulfilling the commandment that would save them. The lamb/kid took not active part in that process. So I see the "works" part, but I don't see the parallel that Jesus is supposed to parallel.

The lamb's blood on the doorpost is what saved the faithful Israelites from death. The Lamb provided the means but the people had to actively use that blood and physically put it on their doorposts. That is the parallel. It wasn't a goat or a bull or any other creature, but specifically a lamb and its blood was to be used in specific way at a specific time to save lives.....that is the parallel.

The general idea of what you're saying here was what I was saying though.

General ideas are not good enough for us.....we need things to be accurate, otherwise we have half a story. And scripture has provided the details that help us to make sense of it all. Half a story only creates doubt and confusion.

So the 144k are just the rulers and priests who govern people on earth. I'm not sure I understand why it should be necessary and how that plays out practically speaking, but that doesn't really matter. The thing I don't get is that you said the 144k are going to be priests because there will be sinners. But presumably these sinners are going to be a from the spiritually cleansed people of the later time period.

Were not the Jews a spiritually cleansed people by God providing his laws to govern their activities? Were they not still sinners who needed priests to provide the means to forgive them of their sins?

Those who go to heaven, leave their sinful flesh behind so they are no longer sinful....but those who will enjoy their rulership on earth are still in their imperfect flesh and will need the priests in heaven to guide them through to the end of the Kingdom's rule when all will return to the idyllic conditions once enjoyed in Eden. God's purpose for this earth and for humankind upon it has never changed. God has always lived up to the meaning of his name...."I Will Be What I Will Be"......he will "BE" whatever he needs to be in order for his first purpose to come to fruition. (Isaiah 55:11)

It looks like you are presenting two pieces to two different puzzles, so I'm not quite sure I get the point here. What exactly did Adam take away from G-d, that you claim Jesus compensated Him for? Based on your reasoning, I would have said that since G-d wanted Adam to live forever, but Adam forced His hand and he had to die, the compensation would be to have someone else live, not die.

And that is exactly the reason why someone had to live and offer that life for Adam's children. A sinless life had to be offered for a sinless life, otherwise the redemption would not have been the full payment. It would be like an Israelite offering a lame or sick animal to God....completely unacceptable.

Also by the way, if Adam can pass sin down to his kids, why can't every other parent?

Since the wages of sin is death...we are all passing this defect onto our children. God never designed the human body to die....we are not 'programmed' for death. It is as foreign to us now as it ever was. The first humans had the opportunity to live forever but they forfeited it due to their disobedience. Death came to them and it spread to their children genetically because we all die.

No, we're waiting the Messiah's only appearance and this time delay you are trying is not understandable from my point of view. G-d didn't kill Adam on the day he sinned and it just took 900+ years for him to die. He killed him on the day he died. Likewise, the Messiah has been delayed because we have yet to be worthy of his advent or to have fallen so low that he must immediately be sent. We don't believe that the Messiah has already done some action and we're simply waiting for the effect of that action to take place. According to your explanation, the action that you believe Jesus was meant to perform was already performed and it's the effect of the action that's delayed for some undisclosed reason.

You obviously have very different expectations regarding the Messiah and his role.

It's whenever the Messiah comes. The belief that the Messiah can come any day is one of the 13 principles of faith in Judaism.

We too are expecting him any day, but he gave us a sign in world conditions to indicate when it would be close. That is why we believe that we are living in the time when Daniel's prophesies will see fulfillment...."the time of the end". (Daniel 12:4)

Presumably because Daniel 12:2 says that by the Resurrection some will go on for eternal life and others not. That suggests that some judgement will take place to determine who will go where.

We believe that the resurrection is foretold for after God has introduced his Kingdom and has eliminated from existence all who oppose his King and his government. (Daniel 2:44) Therefore it makes sense that the resurrection takes place when order has been restored among earth's inhabitants. Those who are awakened from death will then be judged according to what they do from that day forward. Many of these have lived and died in ignorance and will be given opportunity to learn about God and his laws.Those who refuse to conform to God's requirements will be eliminated from existence. No one will remain to cause trouble for others....been there, done that.

I'm expecting almost everyone in heaven and earth to be judged for the final time. I'd say it's scary, because no one knows their potential and by extension if they fulfilled what was expected of them. And there's no more chances after that.

We don't believe anyone was in heaven before the Christ came back for them. We have no belief in an immortal soul that survives death. And this is based on the Hebrews scriptures. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10; Psalm 115:17) As a Jew, Jesus never taught that we had a conscious part of us that goes on living after the death of the body. You can't resurrect someone who is not really dead. So we believe that sheol is the place where all humanity sleeps in peace until the Messiah awakens them.

The ones who win go on to the World to Come and the one's who don't won't.

What is the "world to come" and where is it? What happens to those who don't win?

I think Jeremiah 51:57 answers that question about those whom God rejects...
"And I will make drunk her princes and her wise men, her governors and her mighty men, and they shall sleep a perpetual sleep and not awaken, says the King, the Lord of Hosts is His Name."

The sleep from which no one awakens.....everlasting death is the opposite of everlasting life.

 

[Tumah]

It is apparent to us that God did not create humans and put them on earth as some kind of training ground for heaven. He already had a spiritual family there who never needed to live on earth to qualify for a life that they already enjoyed.

The earth is designed to support abundant physical life and humankind alone were created to be a reflection of the Creator’s attributes, qualities and personality.....his ability to think ahead and plan his actions and to contemplate beforehand their imagined consequences or outcomes. No other creature on earth has the abilities that were bestowed on us. Free will was something no other creature possessed. All these operate by instinct...i.e. their actions are pre-programmed without the need to plan for tomorrow. They live in the moment and all their actions demonstrate that they are programmed to survive and reproduce their own kind without needing to actually think about much of it at all.

Humans alone were appointed as caretakers of this planet and given God’s attributes in order to represent him here and to take care of what he had made....indefinitely. Death was not to be for humans because even though they were mortal, God gave them the means to keep living forever in their mortal flesh without aging and without sickness taking their lives. There was no prohibition on partaking of "the tree of life" until their disobedience introduced sin into the world...then God barred the way to it. That is what made the penalty for taking the fruit so serious....they not only lost that ability for themselves, but also for their children. Death would now come to all alike...man and animal. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

I hear you. Like I said before, none of this is in Genesis, but it's an interesting thought.

So "the adversary" is not a single individual angel, but a group? Where does it indicate this in scripture? Surely he would have been described as "an adversary" if he was part of a group? But "THE adversary" seems to indicate an individual to me. This individual had an agenda and he was bold in his rebellion as it says in Job that he entered right in among the faithful angels that had taken their station before God.

No, you're just saying that, because you believe it, not because it makes more sense. If I said "THE fireman", does that mean that there is only one fireman, or does it mean that I'm talking about a fireman relevant to the particular occasion?

know that many people have concluded that the adversary "works" for God....and he does but not the way most people think. God is definitely using him to test us all out...but the devil has no good motives in what he does in his adversarial role. When God asked him......"Have you paid attention to My servant Job? For there is none like him on earth, a sincere and upright man, God-fearing and shunning evil", we believe that it was because God had already detected a wrong motive in his attention to Job. His responses indicate that he wanted to prove that humans only serve God out of self-interest. He said to God...."stretch forth Your hand and touch all that he has, will he not blaspheme You to Your face?" God is too righteous to bring calamity on a faithful person, but the adversary has no such compunction. None of Job's trials were brought by about God. Job is actually representing all of us.

The adversary is not doing anything except to try and separate faithful ones from their Creator. His motives are evil.

I have not heard anyone except Jews make the claim that the adversary works for G-d. The two verses you've quoted don't really say the things you're claiming they say, you're just investing your theology into them. I don't really see a need to interpret them that way, except of course, because your NT teaches you to look at satan that way.

The lamb's blood on the doorpost is what saved the faithful Israelites from death. The Lamb provided the means but the people had to actively use that blood and physically put it on their doorposts. That is the parallel.

I think we'll find that lamb's blood is typically not useful in saving people from death. Without the commandment, the blood would have no effect. So we're forced to say that the blood isn't what saved them, but having fulfilled the commandment to put the blood there is what saved them.

It wasn't a goat or a bull or any other creature, but specifically a lamb and its blood was to be used in specific way at a specific time to save lives.....that is the parallel.

No, it was actually the blood of a lamb or kid. Gen. 12:5.

General ideas are not good enough for us.....we need things to be accurate, otherwise we have half a story. And scripture has provided the details that help us to make sense of it all. Half a story only creates doubt and confusion.

I'm not sure "general" and "accurate" are mutually exclusive. I don't really see the need to be so explanatory here, but if makes you happy.

Were not the Jews a spiritually cleansed people by God providing his laws to govern their activities? Were they not still sinners who needed priests to provide the means to forgive them of their sins?

It looks like I don't understand what you mean by "spiritually cleansed". Perhaps you can explain.

Those who go to heaven, leave their sinful flesh behind so they are no longer sinful....but those who will enjoy their rulership on earth are still in their imperfect flesh and will need the priests in heaven to guide them through to the end of the Kingdom's rule when all will return to the idyllic conditions once enjoyed in Eden. God's purpose for this earth and for humankind upon it has never changed. God has always lived up to the meaning of his name...."I Will Be What I Will Be"......he will "BE" whatever he needs to be in order for his first purpose to come to fruition. (Isaiah 55:11)

This is confusing! I thought Jesus cured them of the sinful flesh they inherited from Adam? Are you saying that according to JW's it's not Adam's sin that made people inherently sinful, but the flesh and blood body that G-d created for them?

And that is exactly the reason why someone had to live and offer that life for Adam's children. A sinless life had to be offered for a sinless life, otherwise the redemption would not have been the full payment. It would be like an Israelite offering a lame or sick animal to God....completely unacceptable.

I don't really feel like you related to the gist of my question. So I'll try to spell out how I've understood you so far:
Adam was a perfect being who sinned. Because he sinned, he was no longer perfect. Now it's necessary for a perfect being to offer itself in restitution for the perfect being that Adam was.
If Adam was a sacrifice who became unqualified, then I can understand why a different sacrifice would be necessary to replace the first one. So far you have not indicated that Adam was meant to be a sacrifice, so there is no reason to find a sacrifice to replace him.
Conversely, since it may be claimed that Adam did take away his own eternal life from G-d's plan, then a replacement to that should be in a like manner - someone of Adam's stature who would not die forever.

Since the wages of sin is death...we are all passing this defect onto our children. God never designed the human body to die....we are not 'programmed' for death. It is as foreign to us now as it ever was. The first humans had the opportunity to live forever but they forfeited it due to their disobedience. Death came to them and it spread to their children genetically because we all die.

So I guess the obvious question is, what benefit is Jesus actually bringing to the table by only clear humanity of Adam's sin - according to what you're saying, even if you remove Adam's effect on people, there's still the effect of every other ancestor.

You obviously have very different expectations regarding the Messiah and his role.

Naturally.

We too are expecting him any day, but he gave us a sign in world conditions to indicate when it would be close. That is why we believe that we are living in the time when Daniel's prophesies will see fulfillment...."the time of the end". (Daniel 12:4)

Great.

We believe that the resurrection is foretold for after God has introduced his Kingdom and has eliminated from existence all who oppose his King and his government. (Daniel 2:44) Therefore it makes sense that the resurrection takes place when order has been restored among earth's inhabitants. Those who are awakened from death will then be judged according to what they do from that day forward. Many of these have lived and died in ignorance and will be given opportunity to learn about God and his laws.Those who refuse to conform to God's requirements will be eliminated from existence. No one will remain to cause trouble for others....been there, done that.

If I understand what you're saying correctly, you're saying that the Resurrection occurs after the world is working the way JW's believe it was meant to. At that point, everyone is resurrected and given the choice to either conform to G-d's Law or cease to exist. The people who choose to remain will fit in with the rest of the now ordered society. These will all be "spiritually cleansed" people who will still sin despite having been allowed to exist for having accepted to conform to G-d's Law.
Where does the satan fall into this in terms of people sinning?

We don't believe anyone was in heaven before the Christ came back for them. We have no belief in an immortal soul that survives death. And this is based on the Hebrews scriptures. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10; Psalm 115:17) As a Jew, Jesus never taught that we had a conscious part of us that goes on living after the death of the body. You can't resurrect someone who is not really dead. So we believe that sheol is the place where all humanity sleeps in peace until the Messiah awakens them.

I'm not sure what the phrase "as a Jew" is doing there, but I've heard about JW's before that you don't believe in the existence of the soul. Your last line is puzzling though. Are you saying that no one dies, they're actually just sleeping?

What is the "world to come" and where is it?

Depending on the context, it can either refer to the elevated spiritual dimensions of the world or a world that will exist at the end of the current one.

What happens to those who don't win?

They cease to exist.

I think Jeremiah 51:57 answers that question about those whom God rejects...
"And I will make drunk her princes and her wise men, her governors and her mighty men, and they shall sleep a perpetual sleep and not awaken, says the King, the Lord of Hosts is His Name."

The sleep from which no one awakens.....everlasting death is the opposite of everlasting life.

I'm not really sure it's wise in general to draw on a metaphor for a kingdom to our discussion of people just because it uses some ideas that may or may not be similar.

 

[Deeje]

Like I said before, none of this is in Genesis, but it's an interesting thought.

It is in Genesis and backed up by other scripture.

The first humans were told to "fill the earth" with their children and also to "subdue" it. (which means to "overcome, quieten, or bring under control)
If the rest of the world was to become like the garden that God gave them, then the assignment to 'fill the earth' and to bring what was outside the garden 'under their control'.....and they were to have 'dominion over the animals', then their role was clear. They were placed here as caretakers and landscapers with everlasting life as a natural consequence of their obedience.....there was no natural cause of death ever listed in Genesis. "The tree of life" guaranteed that mortals could live forever, but once sin was in the world, God barred the way to the tree of life. (Genesis 3:22-24)

No, you're just saying that, because you believe it, not because it makes more sense. If I said "THE fireman", does that mean that there is only one fireman, or does it mean that I'm talking about a fireman relevant to the particular occasion?

That's hardly a good comparison since one always sees firemen in groups....not alone. Whereas in a courtroom an 'adversary at law' is usually a single person. Besides that, satan was one of many angels who rebelled against their Creator but satan was the first devil, so Genesis is all about him.

I have not heard anyone except Jews make the claim that the adversary works for G-d. The two verses you've quoted don't really say the things you're claiming they say, you're just investing your theology into them. I don't really see a need to interpret them that way, except of course, because your NT teaches you to look at satan that way.

I guess we both suffer from the same problem then.....fitting scripture into our belief system. Who is right remains to be seen I think.

I think we'll find that lamb's blood is typically not useful in saving people from death. Without the commandment, the blood would have no effect. So we're forced to say that the blood isn't what saved them, but having fulfilled the commandment to put the blood there is what saved them.

That is splitting hairs, but the blood sacrifices in Israel were an important part of their forgiveness of sin.

Leviticus 17:11...
"For the soul of the flesh is in the blood, and I have therefore given it to you [to be placed] upon the altar, to atone for your souls. For it is the blood that atones for the soul."

One who is not forgiven cannot be saved....blood is offered to atone for sin. Jesus was identified as "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world". That makes sense to me.

No, it was actually the blood of a lamb or kid. Gen. 12:5.

I think you mean Exodus 12:5.

I'm not sure "general" and "accurate" are mutually exclusive. I don't really see the need to be so explanatory here, but if makes you happy.

I am a stickler for detail (as you may have noticed) the detail is what refines my understanding of the Bible's overall message. What is the Bible's overall message to you?

It looks like I don't understand what you mean by "spiritually cleansed". Perhaps you can explain.

As long as Israel followed the laws that God gave them and engaged in their worship as God instructed, they were spiritually clean in his eyes....it didn't mean that they didn't sin.

This is confusing! I thought Jesus cured them of the sinful flesh they inherited from Adam? Are you saying that according to JW's it's not Adam's sin that made people inherently sinful, but the flesh and blood body that G-d created for them?

Jesus death accomplished two things.....it payed the debt that was necessary to free the human race from sin, and it guaranteed that forgiveness was now granted on the basis of that ransom payment. It released God's worshippers from the need to offer blood sacrifices. You don't offer animal sacrifices anymore do you? Yet isn't it still part of the law for you isn't it?

I don't really feel like you related to the gist of my question. So I'll try to spell out how I've understood you so far:
Adam was a perfect being who sinned. Because he sinned, he was no longer perfect. Now it's necessary for a perfect being to offer itself in restitution for the perfect being that Adam was.

To atone for the life he lost for his children....yes.

If Adam was a sacrifice who became unqualified, then I can understand why a different sacrifice would be necessary to replace the first one. So far you have not indicated that Adam was meant to be a sacrifice, so there is no reason to find a sacrifice to replace him.

Adam was not a sacrifice...he was actually the one responsible for the death of the whole human race. Death was passed to all his children, like a debt incurred by a parent that is inherited by a son or daughter until it is paid in full. The sum in this case was so large that no son or daughter could ever pay it, so a benevolent person stepped in because he had the correct payment, and he wanted to cancel the debt.

Conversely, since it may be claimed that Adam did take away his own eternal life from G-d's plan, then a replacement to that should be in a like manner - someone of Adam's stature who would not die forever.

I see it much like a person standing in front of a firing squad about to be shot for a crime that they did not commit. A hero steps in to take the bullet. That is how I see the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. He didn't have to do that but he wanted to. (John 3:16)

the obvious question is, what benefit is Jesus actually bringing to the table by only clear humanity of Adam's sin - according to what you're saying, even if you remove Adam's effect on people, there's still the effect of every other ancestor.

Sin and death are in our genes...we can't get rid of it....but the great physician has the remedy to silence the gene and heal every single person who was ever affected by it. Jesus provides the means to cure the genetic fault.

If I understand what you're saying correctly, you're saying that the Resurrection occurs after the world is working the way JW's believe it was meant to. At that point, everyone is resurrected and given the choice to either conform to G-d's Law or cease to exist. The people who choose to remain will fit in with the rest of the now ordered society. These will all be "spiritually cleansed" people who will still sin despite having been allowed to exist for having accepted to conform to G-d's Law.
Where does the satan fall into this in terms of people sinning?

Thousands of years of sin will not be undone with the wave of a magic wand. The Revelation given to the apostle John puts a timeframe on the eradication of sin from the redeemed human race.....1,000 years. That is how long it will take to bring about reconciliation with God and to eradicate sin forever. It is why we need a priesthood lasting a 1,000 years.

I'm not sure what the phrase "as a Jew" is doing there, but I've heard about JW's before that you don't believe in the existence of the soul. Your last line is puzzling though. Are you saying that no one dies, they're actually just sleeping?

Solomon wrote about the 'sleep of death' as did his father David. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10; Psalm 115:17) The soul is the whole person. It is not something conscious that lives as separate and distinct from the body....the ancient Jews never believed in the soul being a disembodied spirit....that is an adoption from platonic Greek notions.

When death is likened to a sleep in the Bible, it indicates that firstly a person is not conscious....that they have no way to know how long they have been asleep......and that when God gives his son the command to resurrect the dead, they will have no memory of anything that has transpired whilst they have slept....whether for 5 days or 5 thousand years. Their resurrection will be just as if they closed their eyes but a moment age.

Like Adam, the body returns to the dust; God never spoke about an afterlife at all for Adam...... but for those of Adam's children who sleep in death, all future life prospects for their future life, rests with God.

I know that Jews and Christians will probably never see eye to eye but I have enjoyed our conversation.

 

[Muffled]

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EVIDENCE FOR GRACE

Romans 11:6
6 And if he chose them by grace, then it is not what they have done that made them his people. If they could be made his people by what they did, his gift of grace would not really be a gift.

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us because of his mercy, not because of any good things we did. He saved us through the washing that made us new people. He saved us by making us new through the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. 9 You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about.

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EVIDENCE FOR WORKS

Romans 2: 4-11
4 God has been kind to you. He has been very patient, waiting for you to change. But you think nothing of his kindness. Maybe you don’t understand that God is kind to you so that you will decide to change your lives.
5 But you are so stubborn! You refuse to change. So you are making your own punishment greater and greater. You will be punished on the day when God will show his anger. On that day everyone will see how right God is to judge people. 6 [God] will reward or punish everyone for what they have done. 7 Some people live for God’s glory, for honor, and for life that cannot be destroyed. They live for those things by always continuing to do good. God will give eternal life to them. 8 But others are selfish and refuse to follow truth. They follow evil. God will show his anger and punish them. 9 He will give trouble and suffering to everyone who does evil—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 10 But he will give glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 11 God judges everyone the same. It doesn’t matter who they are.

James 2:14-17
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 We must all stand before Christ to be judged. Everyone will get what they should. They will be paid for whatever they did—good or bad—when they lived in this earthly body.​

So, which is it, and why?

.

I believe it is Grace which produces works.

 

[Muffled]

Being many take the bible in different ways, I reckon people feel they are saved by what they believe and how they personally interpret the scriptures. Who's to say who's right and who's wrong?

I believe belief isn't the same thing as faith.

I believe I am.

 

[Muffled]

Both.

Why?

James 2:14-26...
"Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? 15 If any brothers or sisters are lacking clothing and enough food for the day, 16 yet one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but you do not give them what they need for their body, of what benefit is it? 17 So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead.

18 Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend.


24 You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same manner, was not Raʹhab the prostitute also declared righteous by works after she received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way? 26 Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

That's why.....
Faith is demonstrated by works. You can't have one without the other.

I believe faith without grace is useless.

I believe God doesn't need a demonstration. He sees the heart. It is judgmental people who think they need a demonstration.

 

[viole]

Both.

Why?

James 2:14-26...
"Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? 15 If any brothers or sisters are lacking clothing and enough food for the day, 16 yet one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but you do not give them what they need for their body, of what benefit is it? 17 So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead.

18 Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend.


24 You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same manner, was not Raʹhab the prostitute also declared righteous by works after she received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way? 26 Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

That's why.....
Faith is demonstrated by works. You can't have one without the other.

Of course you can. You can say that works are a necessary condition for faith, but they are not a sufficient one.

Unless you believe that only people of faith can do good works.

Or unless you do not understand the difference between necessary and sufficient conditions, obviously.

Ciao

- viole