e.r.m.
Church of Christ
I agree with Spartan. Ephesians 2:8-9 states explicitly that salvation is not by works.
I agree with you about enduring to the end, but Ephesians is talking about initially saved.
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Saved By Grace Or Saved By Works?
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
I agree with you about enduring to the end, but Ephesians is talking about initially saved.
THE Art Vandelay
Member
Incorrect. As already quoted in James, a person must have works that back up any claim of theirs of having faith.
Spartan
Well-Known Member
The works are the result of being saved and filled with the Holy Spirit, who compels the Christian, with their cooperation, to do good works. Works are not the cause of our salvation.
Totally missing from your theology is "Progressive Sanctification" by the Holy Spirit.
"The process of progressive sanctification is described in Galatians 5:19-23. Progressive sanctification is the journey of producing less and less of the acts of the sinful nature (Galatians 5:19-21) and more and more of the fruit (and works) of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). "
James is talking about that period of time following salvation, where the Holy Spirit is helping the believer to do good works, which is one of the evidences of being saved.
Progressive Sanctification
THE Art Vandelay
Member
Incorrect, since no one is saved right now, according to Matthew 24:13. There is no such thing as "progressive sanctification". Neither the term nor the idea is based in scripture.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
I searched and could not find your translation for Romans
11:6. The closest I found was the
Good News Translation
His choice is based on his grace, not on what they have done. For if God's choice were based on what people do, then his grace would not be real grace.
But I looked up the Greek and it doesn't say what they have done, it says works. Works in the New Testament is defined in 4 ways
1. What God has planned for us to do after we're saved Ephesians 2:10
2. Cirmcumcision and requirements of the law Ephesians 2:11-15.
3. Romans 9:31-32 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. [32] Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.
Paul referred to work here as when the Mosaic law still in effect, the people thought this law in and of itself could save them, minus the faith in God who gave them the law.
The Mosaic law was expected, but it was "works" without the accompanying faith in God.
4. John 6:28-29 Jesus said believing in the one God has sent, namely himself, was as work. Although it's obvious that Paul was not referring to this work in Ephesians 2:8-9.
Never in the New Testament was works referred to as anything a person "has done". Titus 3:5 in the greek, the word is also works.
Romans 2:4-11, James 2:14-17, and 2 Corinthians 5:10 addresses the already saved. It's hard to make these into a case of people being initially saved by "works".
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Spartan
Well-Known Member
I've already crossed over to eternal life (John 5:24). Too bad you're still sweating it out, LOL.
Skwim
Veteran Member
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Thank you. Often these versions change the original meaning in trying to make it easier to digest, making them inaccurate, just FYI.
THE Art Vandelay
Member
You haven't crossed over to anything but delusion. LOL.
Spartan
Well-Known Member
THE Art Vandelay
Member
So now you think you're Jesus? Like I said.....delusion.
Spartan
Well-Known Member
Flush. John 5:24 is what Jesus said, and you deny it. More heresies from you.
THE Art Vandelay
Member
Flush. Matthew 24:13 is what Jesus said, and you deny it. More heresies from you.
Andrew Twain
Member
There are some truths mixed in with many peoples comments. None of us are perfect and we all certainly do rely on his Grace. Grace is one essential ingredient. The other is that we do as Jesus has asked us to do...
‘Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.’ [Matthew 7:19-21]
It is possible, as you say, to fall away from your active faith in Christ to become a passive believer. This passive belief will not help. So you are right, we must have grace. You are also right that passive faith will not save us. We must do as Jesus asked, as quoted above in Matthew.
Andrew Twain
Member
-------------
Israel was chosen by God to be an elect people [Isaiah 45:3–6], but the children of Israel did not always choose him back. They were a backsliding group whose neck was like an iron sinew. Nevertheless, the promises of God were not going to be broken even though he would have to do some serious redeeming to restore them to glory. Remember that scriptural prophecy does not end at the coming of Christ, but rather it will come to the final chapter when his government has been established upon the earth for a thousand years. The New Testament is only the halfway point between Adam and the final judgement. There is so much more prophecy to be fulfilled regarding Israel and the cause of Christ.
The children of Israel were to be scattered throughout the world from the north to the south and among the isles of the sea to the utmost bounds of the everlasting hills [Isaiah 43:4–6, Psalms 107:1–6, Genesis 49:26]. This scattering will have been of such great scope, that even the children themselves will not know who they are until they are watered like grass and begin to revive [Isaiah 44:1–6]. When they are gathered back into the main olive tree the natural branches will ask, ‘Who are these?’ and not know where their children have been hiding or from whence they came [Isaiah 49:21–22, Romans 11:23–24]. God is all-wise and all-knowing (Omniscient), so he has preserved a remnant of the children of Israel and will bring them back to assist Israel in becoming the chosen people of the Lord once more [Romans 11:1–5].
You are right that it does not matter what your lineage is with regard to the promises to Abraham, but we must remember that God still loves the Jews and wider Israel with all his heart. He has promised to remember them and his promises will all be fulfilled.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Actually, the word 'listen' here ἀκούω is also used in Matthew 7:24 for "hear" also expecting the hearers to put his words into practice. In the Matthew 7:24 passage it does not mention believing in God who sent him. Although we know the belief is still expected because it's mentioned elsewhere. Similarly, we know putting his words into practice (not just listening) is expected because he mentioned it elsewhere. Wouldn't believing in God who sent Jesus involve following what He says anyway?
In the case of the bronze serpent, they believed in God and made the bronze serpent and had to stay near it so they can look upon it if they were bitten.
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Hello and welcome to RF @Andrew Twain.
I agree with what you have stated here. Understanding the meaning of the times in which we are living is important because all that Jesus and his apostles taught are having their fulfillment right now.
This is where we diverge.
The children of Israel broke their covenant with God many times, and he kept forgiving them because his purpose in connection with them was not complete....but after he had fulfilled his end of the contract, producing the promised seed, God let Israel go for the very reason that they were serial covenant breakers, stiff necked and disobedient. God never broke his covenant with them, but they let him down time and again. Why would he keep them as his people when they had no intentions of repenting or changing their ways?
Jesus lamented...
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’” (Matthew 23:37-39 NASB)
God broke his ties with fleshly Israel when they murdered his son. This action was in keeping with what his wayward nation did to the prophets of old....rather than listen and be corrected, they killed the prophets to silence them. They did this with Jesus too. Why would he keep them as his nation?
When John the Baptist was at the Jordan River baptizing the Jews in symbol of their repentance over sins against the Law....Matthew 3:7-10 says.....
"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; 9 and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. 10 The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
Being 'a son of Abraham' in the flesh was not going to count for anything if they did not teach according to God's word. They never did repent of their sins and compounded their error by having Jesus executed.
Jesus said that they would not see him again until they said "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord".....in the last 2,000 years, the Jews as a nation, have never acknowledged Jesus as that one. Individual Jews have done so, which is what happened in the first century.
The telling thing is, that Jesus was not sent to the Religious Leaders of Israel....he was sent only to "the lost sheep".....who were lost because their shepherds were too busy serving their own interests to worry about those "lost" ones....the sinners and the despised tax collectors whom Jesus routinely preached to....giving them hope that they were not condemned
I don't think you have read that scripture correctly.
Romans 11:1-5...
"I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” 4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice."
Do you see what is said there...? When Israel had fallen away to the worship of Baal, Elijah lamented the fact that his people had left true worship under the evil rule of Ahab and Jezebel. All of God's prophets had been killed and Elijah was the last one left alive and Jezebel swore that she would take his life as well, so Elijah fled to a cave. (1 Kings ch 19)
When God announced to him that he would rectify the situation he told Elijah...."I have kept 7,000 in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal.....”
Out of his whole nation, only 7,000 had remained true to the worship of Yahweh. And only a remnant was prophesied to stay loyal to God.
Isaiah also said...
"For though your people, O Israel, may be like the sand of the sea,
Only a remnant within them will return;
A destruction is determined, overflowing with righteousness.
23 For a complete destruction, one that is decreed, the Lord God of hosts will execute in the midst of the whole land."
Natural Israel would not be the major part of God's people in this time of the end. Only a remnant of natural Israel accepted Jesus in the first century and only a remnant will accept Jesus as Messiah in our day. The majority will not feature in God's plans for the future at all. Look at Israel today...they are just one of the nations embroiled in bloodshed like all the rest.
If you understand what it means to be part of "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) then no relationship to fleshly Israel is necessary. Paul was speaking about the Christians of both Jewish and Gentile nationality.
True to his covenant God gave first option to the natural Jews to form the ruling class of his Kingdom. But when Israel did not produce the numbers, God turned to the Gentiles to make up the difference (Acts 15:14) and fulfill his covenant with Abraham....that "all the nations would be blessed" by the seed that would come from him.
In order to keep his covenant, God changed the definition of what "Israel" meant.....
Paul wrote...
Romans 2:25-29...
"For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God."
Paul speaks of one who transgresses the law, that his “circumcision has become uncircumcision”; and, conversely, if “an uncircumcised person keeps the righteous requirements of the Law, his uncircumcision will be counted as circumcision”. His conclusion is this: “He is not a Jew that is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew that is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. So one may be a Jew in name and circumcised in the flesh, yet if he fails to meet God’s requirements he is no part of the “Israel of God” but becomes as an uncircumcised Gentile in God’s sight. On the other hand, one who is outwardly a Gentile may be counted by faith as a Jew inwardly, a spiritual Israelite.
Unless natural fleshly Jews accept Jesus as Messiah, they will not inherit God's Kingdom. Why would God keep forgiving those who do not believe that they have anything over which to repent?
That is how I understand God's word as it pertains to Israel.
I agree with what you have stated here. Understanding the meaning of the times in which we are living is important because all that Jesus and his apostles taught are having their fulfillment right now.
This is where we diverge.
The children of Israel broke their covenant with God many times, and he kept forgiving them because his purpose in connection with them was not complete....but after he had fulfilled his end of the contract, producing the promised seed, God let Israel go for the very reason that they were serial covenant breakers, stiff necked and disobedient. God never broke his covenant with them, but they let him down time and again. Why would he keep them as his people when they had no intentions of repenting or changing their ways?
Jesus lamented...
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’” (Matthew 23:37-39 NASB)
God broke his ties with fleshly Israel when they murdered his son. This action was in keeping with what his wayward nation did to the prophets of old....rather than listen and be corrected, they killed the prophets to silence them. They did this with Jesus too. Why would he keep them as his nation?
When John the Baptist was at the Jordan River baptizing the Jews in symbol of their repentance over sins against the Law....Matthew 3:7-10 says.....
"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; 9 and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. 10 The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
Being 'a son of Abraham' in the flesh was not going to count for anything if they did not teach according to God's word. They never did repent of their sins and compounded their error by having Jesus executed.
Jesus said that they would not see him again until they said "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord".....in the last 2,000 years, the Jews as a nation, have never acknowledged Jesus as that one. Individual Jews have done so, which is what happened in the first century.
The telling thing is, that Jesus was not sent to the Religious Leaders of Israel....he was sent only to "the lost sheep".....who were lost because their shepherds were too busy serving their own interests to worry about those "lost" ones....the sinners and the despised tax collectors whom Jesus routinely preached to....giving them hope that they were not condemned
I don't think you have read that scripture correctly.
Romans 11:1-5...
"I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” 4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice."
Do you see what is said there...? When Israel had fallen away to the worship of Baal, Elijah lamented the fact that his people had left true worship under the evil rule of Ahab and Jezebel. All of God's prophets had been killed and Elijah was the last one left alive and Jezebel swore that she would take his life as well, so Elijah fled to a cave. (1 Kings ch 19)
When God announced to him that he would rectify the situation he told Elijah...."I have kept 7,000 in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal.....”
Out of his whole nation, only 7,000 had remained true to the worship of Yahweh. And only a remnant was prophesied to stay loyal to God.
Isaiah also said...
"For though your people, O Israel, may be like the sand of the sea,
Only a remnant within them will return;
A destruction is determined, overflowing with righteousness.
23 For a complete destruction, one that is decreed, the Lord God of hosts will execute in the midst of the whole land."
Natural Israel would not be the major part of God's people in this time of the end. Only a remnant of natural Israel accepted Jesus in the first century and only a remnant will accept Jesus as Messiah in our day. The majority will not feature in God's plans for the future at all. Look at Israel today...they are just one of the nations embroiled in bloodshed like all the rest.
If you understand what it means to be part of "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) then no relationship to fleshly Israel is necessary. Paul was speaking about the Christians of both Jewish and Gentile nationality.
True to his covenant God gave first option to the natural Jews to form the ruling class of his Kingdom. But when Israel did not produce the numbers, God turned to the Gentiles to make up the difference (Acts 15:14) and fulfill his covenant with Abraham....that "all the nations would be blessed" by the seed that would come from him.
In order to keep his covenant, God changed the definition of what "Israel" meant.....
Paul wrote...
Romans 2:25-29...
"For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God."
Paul speaks of one who transgresses the law, that his “circumcision has become uncircumcision”; and, conversely, if “an uncircumcised person keeps the righteous requirements of the Law, his uncircumcision will be counted as circumcision”. His conclusion is this: “He is not a Jew that is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew that is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. So one may be a Jew in name and circumcised in the flesh, yet if he fails to meet God’s requirements he is no part of the “Israel of God” but becomes as an uncircumcised Gentile in God’s sight. On the other hand, one who is outwardly a Gentile may be counted by faith as a Jew inwardly, a spiritual Israelite.
Unless natural fleshly Jews accept Jesus as Messiah, they will not inherit God's Kingdom. Why would God keep forgiving those who do not believe that they have anything over which to repent?
That is how I understand God's word as it pertains to Israel.
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Andrew Twain
Member
-----------Hello and welcome to RF @Andrew Twain.
I agree with what you have stated here. Understanding the meaning of the times in which we are living is important because all that Jesus and his apostles taught are having their fulfillment right now.
This is where we diverge.
The children of Israel broke their covenant with God many times, and he kept forgiving them because his purpose in connection with them was not complete....but after he had fulfilled his end of the contract, producing the promised seed, God let Israel go for the very reason that they were serial covenant breakers, stiff necked and disobedient. God never broke his covenant with them, but they let him down time and again. Why would he keep them as his people when they had no intentions of repenting or changing their ways?
Jesus lamented...
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’” (Matthew 23:37-39 NASB)
God broke his ties with fleshly Israel when they murdered his son. This action was in keeping with what his waywarde nation did to the prophets of old....rather than listen and be corrected, they killed the prophets to silence them. They did this with Jesus too. Why would he keep them as his nation?
When John the Baptist was at the Jordan River baptizing the Jews in symbol of their repentance over sins against the Law....Matthew 3:7-10 says.....
"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; 9 and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. 10 The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
Being 'a son of Abraham' in the flesh was not going to count for anything if they did not teach according to God's word. They never did repent of their sins and compounded their error by having Jesus executed.
Jesus said that they would not see him again until they said "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord".....in the last 2,000 years, the Jews as a nation, have never acknowledged Jesus as that one. Individual Jews have done so, which is what happened in the first century.
The telling thing is, that Jesus was not sent to the Religious Leaders of Israel....he was sent only to "the lost sheep".....who were lost because their shepherds were too busy serving their own interests to worry about those "lost" ones....the sinners and the despised tax collectors whom Jesus routinely preached to....giving them hope that they were not condemned
I don't think you have read that scripture correctly.
Romans 11:1-5...
"I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” 4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice."
Do you see what is said there...? When Israel had fallen away to the worship of Baal, Elijah lamented the fact that his people had left true worship under the evil rule of Ahab and Jezebel. All of God's prophets had been killed and Elijah was the last one left alive and Jezebel swore that she would take his life as well, so Elijah fled to a cave. (1 Kings ch 19)
When God announced to him that he would rectify the situation he told Elijah...."I have kept 7,000 in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal.....”
Out of his whole nation, only 7,000 had remained true to the worship of Yahweh. And only a remnant was prophesied to stay loyal to God.
Isaiah also said...
"For though your people, O Israel, may be like the sand of the sea,
Only a remnant within them will return;
A destruction is determined, overflowing with righteousness.
23 For a complete destruction, one that is decreed, the Lord God of hosts will execute in the midst of the whole land."
Natural Israel would not be the major part of God's people in this time of the end. Only a remnant of natural Israel accepted Jesus in the first century and only a remnant will accept Jesus as Messiah in our day. The majority will not feature in God's plans for the future at all. Look at Israel today...they are just one of the nations embroiled in bloodshed like all the rest.
If you understand what it means to be part of "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) then no relationship to fleshly Israel is necessary. Paul was speaking about the Christians of both Jewish and Gentile nationality.
True to his covenant God gave first option to the natural Jews to form the ruling class of his Kingdom. But when Israel did not produce the numbers, God turned to the Gentiles to make up the difference (Acts 15:14) and fulfill his covenant with Abraham....that "all the nations would be blessed" by the seed that would come from him.
In order to keep his covenant, God changed the definition of what "Israel" meant.....
Paul wrote...
Romans 2:25-29...
"For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God."
Paul speaks of one who transgresses the law, that his “circumcision has become uncircumcision”; and, conversely, if “an uncircumcised person keeps the righteous requirements of the Law, his uncircumcision will be counted as circumcision”. His conclusion is this: “He is not a Jew that is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew that is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. So one may be a Jew in name and circumcised in the flesh, yet if he fails to meet God’s requirements he is no part of the “Israel of God” but becomes as an uncircumcised Gentile in God’s sight. On the other hand, one who is outwardly a Gentile may be counted by faith as a Jew inwardly, a spiritual Israelite.
Unless natural fleshly Jews accept Jesus as Messiah, they will not inherit God's Kingdom. Why would God keep forgiving those who do not believe that they have anything over which to repent?
That is how I understand God's word as it pertains to Israel.
Hi Deeje,
Thank you for taking the time to reply so well. What I have written, I have written, but we do have more in common than may appear. It is always sad to read the lamentation of Jesus as he ponders over the imminent destruction of his people Israel.
'O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord'
At the end of his lament he offers the olive branch of hope to their childrens children when he said 'Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord'
Jesus was married to Israel and Isaiah 54 discusses how he will never forget her, even if for a little while it seems he has left her (v.6-8).
From his lament over Jerusalem in Matthew, we can see that Israel will be gathered once more by the second coming of Jesus Christ when he comes in the majesty of his Glory. Israel is not now redeamed, but will be when He stands on the mount of olives and devides it in two. See Zechariah 13:6-9 and 14:1-5. These are events surrounding the second advent of the Lord before the Millennial reign in chaper 14.
The discussions regarding Circumcision and non Circumcision were ongoing battles between the new Christians who had converted from Judaism and still wanted to keep the law of Moses. Only after the conference in Acts 15 did they decide how to proceed in unity on that question. The idea that a gentile would become a Jew spiritually through keeping the new covenant of Christ is certainly true. They were being adopted into the lineage of Israel (Judah) spiritually and supplanted natural born Jews in the covenant. However, the natural born Jews would, in the future, many generations forward, become chosen once again along with the converted Gentiles. These are the promises given by a faithful husband to an unfaithful wife in Isaiah 54 and by Jesus as he lamented over Jerusalem.
If you re-read my original post, I hope it makes more sense now regarding the olive branch. However, I do appreciate your words and respect your thoughts on the subject
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Why are you even worrying about the afterlife? Worry about living for God in THIS life. God wants you to obey him and serve. Focus on that, and the afterlife will take care of itself.