Saved to what end?

[Nimblewill]

I just read this, This explains salvation better than I can.

"Once we experience God as Unconditional Love and Lover and realize there is no reason to be afraid, then we also realize that it is a waste of time trying to manipulate others or use others for our advantage or to use God to manipulate others. And we no longer want to. That’s the real liberating reality. We are finally able to see how childish and silly all those manipulative games are. "
Chuck Queen -A Fresh Perspective

More from the same article......................."the salvation of the world is God’s work, it is also accepting our part in God’s work to save the world. It is God’s work to save the world (to heal, transform the world), but it is our part to say “yes” to our participation in the salvation of the world, and we can start by saying yes to God’s work in our own hearts and lives right now."

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

I just read this, This explains salvation better than I can.

"Once we experience God as Unconditional Love and Lover and realize there is no reason to be afraid, then we also realize that it is a waste of time trying to manipulate others or use others for our advantage or to use God to manipulate others. And we no longer want to. That’s the real liberating reality. We are finally able to see how childish and silly all those manipulative games are. "
Chuck Queen -A Fresh Perspective

More from the same article......................."the salvation of the world is God’s work, it is also accepting our part in God’s work to save the world. It is God’s work to save the world (to heal, transform the world), but it is our part to say “yes” to our participation in the salvation of the world, and we can start by saying yes to God’s work in our own hearts and lives right now."

I agree that says it best from the christian perspective. As long as you are doing anything to 'save' yourself or others you are wasting your time. There is nothing you can do in this regard. As long as you focus on god, heaven, salvation, etc., you are wasting your time.

When you focus on living a good life, being a better person, helping others, etc., we can truly make a difference.

I do not believe in god. But I do emphatically believe that IFF there was a god, the most godly person would be the one that ignore's the possibility of god, the path to heaven, the pointing out of 'what god wants' etc., and lives this life here and now as if it were the only opportunity you'd ever have to help.

Now take this person, that does lives life as if it was the only opportunity to help, to do good. And find that that person is a christian, or a muslim, or a hindu, or an atheist. From what I've heard from some of the responses here, they are all sinners except the guy who has faith in Jesus? The atheist will burn in hell forever, having done everything humanly possible to do good. But the christian will be saved even though they may have done very little, or nothing, to help?

No. IFF there is a god who cares, then I find it hard to believe that what he cares about is if we believe some 2000 year old story that is suspect at best.

If there is a god he couldn't care less if you believed in him or not!!!

 

[Nooj]

...

That's insane and more importantly, impossible to achieve. You cannot give me an impossible goal, a goal you know to be impossible, and then punish me for failing. That's like breaking my legs and telling me you'll break my ribs if I don't win a marathon.

No, it is not unobtainable to be a good person. It is unobtainable to be perfect. We cannot inherently achieve that. It is not possible. And that is what makes it terrible. The bar is set knowingly too high, so that we are predestined to fail, and then are punished for it.

No thank you.

i don't know if i can ever be a good person. but i know that i can never consider myself to be a good person.

in the eyes of god, we are everything. but in our eyes, we must be as nothing. because to see ourselves as everything as god sees us is mere pride.

i am always becoming a good person. there is no end. there will be no end.

you see that a curse? i see perfection as a grace from god.

it is a commandment to love our neighbours. even if it is impossible, it must be done. because it is impossible, it must be carried out with all our effort and might. and at the utmost limit of human ability, we are not alone.

have you ever read about sisyphus? one must imagine sisyphus happy.

how sad to have such a miserable relationship before god, cowering in fear waiting for his blow to fall because you know you are not perfect.

why not know you are not perfect and so begin perfecting?

fear of god can be understood in different ways.

the untrusting man, the man of little faith, fears god as a tyrant. he feels his sinful status and can only feel this. talk of the god of love is meaningless to him. his only relation to god is that of god the avenger. he does not know of god the redeemer.

the trusting man fears god in the original sense of god-fearer, that is humbleness. he feels his sinful status. he knows he is not perfect. but his awareness of his sins, though it hurts morning and night like a sword stuck in his side, does not plunge him into despair. his sense of imperfection drives him to be closer to the source of perfection, like a moth to a flame.

once upon a time, a firefly lived in the forest. the dense tree cover meant that the firefly never saw anything but the darkness of the undergrowth, his light was strong and illuminated much around him. he sung happily to himself, and thought how he important he was, as the light in the blackness that the other animals relied upon. but one night, a great storm arose from the east and swept the trees away. when the next day dawned, the firefly awoke and saw the dawning of the sun in its glory, and was truly ashamed at his pretensions. all the other animals blinked in the morning light and gaped in wonder. the firefly wept 'now i am nothing. i was only a little light.' the firefly lay down and prepared to die. when he awoke next, it was at the instigation of the voices of the other animals calling his name, for it was night, and the sun was gone and they needed his help going home. the firefly thought to himself 'i'm not the sun, i can't make night into day. but i can be like the sun, a little sun for others'. and he lived thus.

 

[Nietzsche]

i don't know if i can ever be a good person. but i know that i can never consider myself to be a good person.

in the eyes of god, we are everything. but in our eyes, we must be as nothing. because to see ourselves as everything as god sees us is mere pride.

i am always becoming a good person. there is no end. there will be no end.

you see that a curse? i see perfection as a grace from god.

it is a commandment to love our neighbours. even if it is impossible, it must be done. because it is impossible, it must be carried out with all our effort and might. and at the utmost limit of human ability, we are not alone.

I still refuse to be judged by that standard. You cannot give me a task you know I cannot even hope to complete and then punish me for failure. I did not fail, God failed by giving us a task he knew was impossible.

have you ever read about sisyphus? one must imagine sisyphus happy.

I've got various translations(and the original actual-Greek) of the Greco-Roman myths. Sisyphus rolls a boulder up a hill eternally as a punishment. This is not aiding your case if you think that is an apt analogy.

how sad to have such a miserable relationship before god, cowering in fear waiting for his blow to fall because you know you are not perfect.

why not know you are not perfect and so begin perfecting?

fear of god can be understood in different ways.

the untrusting man, the man of little faith, fears god as a tyrant. he feels his sinful status and can only feel this. talk of the god of love is meaningless to him. his only relation to god is that of god the avenger. he does not know of god the redeemer.

I do not believe in the God of Abraham. My Gods are the Aesir and Vanir.

the trusting man fears god in the original sense of god-fearer, that is humbleness. he feels his sinful status. he knows he is not perfect. but his awareness of his sins, though it hurts morning and night like a sword stuck in his side, does not plunge him into despair. his sense of imperfection drives him to be closer to the source of perfection, like a moth to a flame.

And they do not ask me to belittle myself. They do not hold me or anyone to a standard we cannot achieve, or any standards at all. They simply are, living their lives and I mine.

once upon a time, a firefly lived in the forest. the dense tree cover meant that the firefly never saw anything but the darkness of the undergrowth, his light was strong and illuminated much around him. he sung happily to himself, and thought how he important he was, as the light in the blackness that the other animals relied upon. but one night, a great storm arose from the east and swept the trees away. when the next day dawned, the firefly awoke and saw the dawning of the sun in its glory, and was truly ashamed at his pretensions. all the other animals blinked in the morning light and gaped in wonder. the firefly wept 'now i am nothing. i was only a little light.' the firefly lay down and prepared to die. when he awoke next, it was at the instigation of the voices of the other animals calling his name, for it was night, and the sun was gone and they needed his help going home. the firefly thought to himself 'i'm not the sun, i can't make night into day. but i can be like the sun, a little sun for others'. and he lived thus.

That is a good fable. But that has to do with personal standards, not ones set by a divine force.

 

[Ingledsva]

Did I say lifting a candy bar, or swearing at someone?

Whatever is not from faith is sin. Why? Because it is inherently a rejection of God. This is not some petty crime but a rebellion against God. Unbelief is the root of sin here, as we reject and rebel against God. It is not merely actions but the very will and mindset of an individual turned against God, loving their own ways rather than God's.

BULL! Petty crime is just what it is, over time, - NOT A REASON TO KILL PEOPLE!

Such is NOT a rebellion against God, but a matter of circumstances, or learning what not to do, or need , etc.

In no way is it against God, or worthy of being murdered for!

*

 

[Thief]

Absolutly; 500 BC Plato said the same thing. You and he are perceptive in this area. Any day now!So there's no point to existence unless life on this planet ends? You are saying that unless we destroy ourselves, there's no point? If that i so why don't you move on to and let those of us who appreciate life on earth here and now work to make it a better place.Ok, listen to me, this is important. We work on peace here and now because we would rather look at the ugly reality and actually try to help, as opposed to deluding ourselves that it's in god's hands and everything will be ok in that great cook-aid dispenser in the sky. We know the situation is not always great, we know we can be part of the problem or part of the solution. We know that working for peace has a greater positive effect then getting on our hands and knees and praying for peace. I know you will disagree with the last statement, you you just stated that, in your view, peace is pretty much an impossibility. So..you can pretend like it's god's hands..pray for peace..and in reality in your mind you are waiting on the single worst catastrophe in human history to save us...It's a fairly quick process, spoken as if you have every even once observed the generation of a new spirit???Again you are drinking cool-aid brother.lol, without heaven actually existing, you won't! Here's the thing, even if there is a god and a heaven, it will not be the one's banging on the door that get in. It will not be the one's living their entire life with that goal in mind that get in. It will be the people who ignore the possibility and struggle to make this world as perfect as possible who get in.

It will be people who couldn'd care less if god came here to help or not that get in, the one's who take it on themselves to do what's best for here and now, without regard to speculative metaphysics, who get in.

We work toward peace here because the lack of it would be total chaos.
That makes peace a survival item in this life.

Let this chaos enter into the next?.....I don't think that would be allowed.
Survival on a personal level....live in grace now and continue to do so....later.

But it seems we agree?....don't we?

 

[Thief]

Why does there need to be a knife to begin with??

Swords server the living from the dead.
The peace of heaven is guarded.

Angels have been displayed with sword in hand for centuries.

 

[Thief]

BULL! Petty crime is just what it is, over time, - NOT A REASON TO KILL PEOPLE!

Such is NOT a rebellion against God, but a matter of circumstances, or learning what not to do, or need , etc.

In no way is it against God, or worthy of being murdered for!

*

I would offer mercy first.....I think you might agree.
But...it is written...
Take care the least of things, for if you cannot be trusted with the least of things...How then anything greater?

 

[Ingledsva]

I would offer mercy first.....I think you might agree.
But...it is written...
Take care the least of things, for if you cannot be trusted with the least of things...How then anything greater?

I don't agree with this at all.

I always wonder why Christians think their relationship to God has to be a PERFECT kowtowing slave.

Or more importantly, - why would an all-knowing God require this impossible role of imperfect humans?


*

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

BULL! Petty crime is just what it is, over time, - NOT A REASON TO KILL PEOPLE!

Such is NOT a rebellion against God, but a matter of circumstances, or learning what not to do, or need , etc.

In no way is it against God, or worthy of being murdered for!

*

The very will of man is turned against God, we deserve Hell, eternal punishment for our sin, not mere petty crime but yes, rebellion against God.

 

[thau]

Saved from the same God who made us sick in the first place, obviously.

Made sick, told to be well.

Do you have a problem with your child going through some trying times, either physical or mental, as he grows up in order to make him a stronger, wiser and more compassionate person? Or would you prefer he be given everything his selfish psyche demands and not be expected or required to do anything of rigor on his own to improve his life or advance his understanding?

Which would give you greater pleasure as a parent? And, yes, you can make that choice for him or her.

 

[Thief]

I don't agree with this at all.

I always wonder why Christians think their relationship to God has to be a PERFECT kowtowing slave.

Or more importantly, - why would an all-knowing God require this impossible role of imperfect humans?


*

Well the flip side would be very harsh......no judgment.

A line must be drawn.
Otherwise, all that lives on the earth will find it's way into heaven.
Heaven would then be no different than earth.
Chaos in this life....chaos in the next.

I believe the peace of heaven is guarded.
Not all of us belong there.
I suspect.....strongly suspect......
wherever you draw the line....THAT line determines who leads.....who follows.

Or perhaps you prefer eternity....standing alone?

 

[Muffled]

Not all religions preach salvation. Why does a person need to be saved? From what does a person need to be saved? How can a person be saved?

My position is that I'm just as good as any other, and there is nothing you can do that makes you more worthy. So how can one elevate themselves to the status of saved?

I beleive everyone needs to be alligned with God's will for everything to work out well.

I believe there are two reasons: 1. sins 2. the destruction of the world.

I believe a person can be partially saved from sin by keeping the law of God but to be fully saved from sin one must receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. I believe one is saved from the destruction of the earth by being raptured and accepting the imputed righteousness that Jesus provided by His death on the cross.

I believe your premise is false so the conclusion implied by the question is also false. I believe only God is good so that is what makes us more worthy. This is not an elevation of self but a lifting up by God.

 

[Muffled]

Saved from the same God who made us sick in the first place, obviously.

Made sick, told to be well.

I believe there is no evidence that God made us sick. I believe there is no salvation from God. He is all powerful , will do what He wants and there is no way to be saved from that.

 

[Muffled]

This referd to a part of Christian theology I have never been able to quite understand - indeed! Saved from what? I understand how different such notions were to the sensibilities of those who lived in the ancient world - but I can not understand is how salvation translates into the modern worldview.

If Jesus really did die in agony to save us, how does that work? What mechanism is at play when one person is slaughtered in agony to save future people? Do modern christians truly believe that human sacrifice can mitigate the sins of others?[/QUOTE]

I believe salvation never fits into a world view.

I believe modern people believe this. A fireman goes into a burning building to save lives and dies in the process. Maybe someone was smoking in bed and that started the fire but the fireman will save him anyway despite his causing the problem in the first place. However a fireman will go beyond that doing his best to educate people not to smoke in bed.

I believe if one is going to have a Lord one must believe that Lord will have one's best interests at heart even to the point of sacrificing His own life.

 

[Nietzsche]

Do you have a problem with your child going through some trying times, either physical or mental, as he grows up in order to make him a stronger, wiser and more compassionate person? Or would you prefer he be given everything his selfish psyche demands and not be expected or required to do anything of rigor on his own to improve his life or advance his understanding?

Which would give you greater pleasure as a parent? And, yes, you can make that choice for him or her.

I would make a world where he doesn't have to suffer in order to be a good person. And I am not talking about "some trying times". We are given standards we cannot possibly meet and then are told that if we don't beg for forgiveness for not meeting those standards, we're going to a place that is somehow, impossibly, manages to be worse than the one he put us in in the first place. The standards put forth in the Bible cannot be met by any stretch of the imagination. And we are supposed to think it's an act of mercy when he "sacrifices" his son to clear the "debt" he gave us in the first place?

We are given a ludicrous handicap and then told to perform as if we didn't, and when he figures out that we can't meet that goal he thinks it mercy to offer up a human sacrifice, and then tells us that the only way to not be punished for the faults he gave us is to say that we're "bad" and that we "needed" that sacrifice. Ignoring who gave us the handicap in the first place.

This is like me breaking both your legs while you're dying of thirst and telling you that if you want water you can either run a marathon or sing my praises for offering you water in the first place.

I believe there is no evidence that God made us sick. I believe there is no salvation from God. He is all powerful , will do what He wants and there is no way to be saved from that.

Then why are we given standards we cannot hope to meet and are punished when we don't?

 

[thau]

I would make a world where he doesn't have to suffer in order to be a good person. And I am not talking about "some trying times". We are given standards we cannot possibly meet and then are told that if we don't beg for forgiveness for not meeting those standards, we're going to a place that is somehow, impossibly, manages to be worse than the one he put us in in the first place. The standards put forth in the Bible cannot be met by any stretch of the imagination. And we are supposed to think it's an act of mercy when he "sacrifices" his son to clear the "debt" he gave us in the first place?

We are given a ludicrous handicap and then told to perform as if we didn't, and when he figures out that we can't meet that goal he thinks it mercy to offer up a human sacrifice, and then tells us that the only way to not be punished for the faults he gave us is to say that we're "bad" and that we "needed" that sacrifice. Ignoring who gave us the handicap in the first place.

This is like me breaking both your legs while you're dying of thirst and telling you that if you want water you can either run a marathon or sing my praises for offering you water in the first place.

First off, I asked you a question you chose not to answer directly. I guess I have to accept that, not a problem.

Now to your comments: Who told you that is how God acts? Was it your interpretation of Holy Scripture or some other so-called Christian authority? Because what you say I say is a lie because it assumes things that I believe are false, or at a minimum, one would have no way of knowing. So, once again, the doubter casts God in a sinister role based upon his own false description of God. (imo)

Have you any evidence of this is how God treats sinful man?

 

[Nietzsche]

First off, I asked you a question you chose not to answer directly. I guess I have to accept that, not a problem.

The question you asked was too limited. If you want to ask a question like that, I require first the granting of all the powers of an omnipotent & omniscient being. So I answered "I would make a world where he would not have to suffer to be good". It's the only proper way to ask and answer that question.

Now to your comments: Who told you that is how God acts? Was it your interpretation of Holy Scripture or some other so-called Christian authority? Because what you say I say is a lie because it assumes things that I believe are false, or at a minimum, one would have no way of knowing. So, once again, the doubter casts God in a sinister role based upon his own false description of God. (imo)

I've read the Bible in English about 2-3 times. I've read it in Latin, Aramaic & Greek about twice each. And yes, I do assume you cannot know.

Have you any evidence of this is how God treats sinful man?

Bible.

 

[Muffled]

I would make a world where he doesn't have to suffer in order to be a good person. And I am not talking about "some trying times". We are given standards we cannot possibly meet and then are told that if we don't beg for forgiveness for not meeting those standards, we're going to a place that is somehow, impossibly, manages to be worse than the one he put us in in the first place. The standards put forth in the Bible cannot be met by any stretch of the imagination. And we are supposed to think it's an act of mercy when he "sacrifices" his son to clear the "debt" he gave us in the first place?

We are given a ludicrous handicap and then told to perform as if we didn't, and when he figures out that we can't meet that goal he thinks it mercy to offer up a human sacrifice, and then tells us that the only way to not be punished for the faults he gave us is to say that we're "bad" and that we "needed" that sacrifice. Ignoring who gave us the handicap in the first place.

This is like me breaking both your legs while you're dying of thirst and telling you that if you want water you can either run a marathon or sing my praises for offering you water in the first place.


Then why are we given standards we cannot hope to meet and are punished when we don't?

I believe with God all things are possible.

 

[Nietzsche]

I believe with God all things are possible.

Good for you. Is that why we're made defective? So we'd need him? Isn't that the most textbook definition of an abusive relationship possible?