Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you

[wizanda]

unwilling to engage point to point

Not in the slightest, always willing to detail on each point - on them threads are lists in the first posts, which makes it easier to discuss contextually.

You don't need to read the whole thing; yet at least posts in threads on the right topic, not to derail this thread.

There are additional lists on the Gospel of John a few pages down; so in total there are over 30+ points wrong, with the Gospel of John Vs the Synoptic Gospels.

In my opinion.

 

[Crosstian]

My point remains. Christianity has the doctrine of the trinity ...

Actually Roman Catholicism has the doctrine, and her daughters. Real Christianity doesn't.

 

[Crosstian]

Not in the slightest...

Good, begin here, list the top 5.

 

[wizanda]

Good, begin here, list the top 5.

Since your new on the forum, maybe you don't get the etiquette, and manners are not to derail a thread.

We post in each section for specific reasons, else it will be deleted if we're not careful.

This is Quranic Debates: with a thread specifically on the topic, the Trinity in the Bible and Quran - can the understanding be rectified.

In my opinion.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Actually Roman Catholicism has the doctrine, and her daughters. Real Christianity doesn't.

Identifying what is real Christianity appears very much a matter of subjective opinion as one Christian group attacks another claiming for itself to represent the true faith and being quick to label those who are wrong non-Christians or some kind of heretic.

You identify as a seventh day adventist. Do you consider yourself a real Christian? What is seven day adventist take on the Trinity and do you agree with it?

 

[Crosstian]

Since your new on the forum, maybe you don't get the etiquette, and manners are not to derail a thread....

That's what I thought. Escape route (you brought up the topic).

 

[Crosstian]

... What is seven day adventist take on the Trinity and do you agree with it?

That's easy. Go here - Ellen G. White Writings and type in the word "trinity" under the writings of Ellen G White, the true messenger of the LORD. You'll learn all you need to know.

 

[wizanda]

Ellen G White, the true messenger of the LORD.

Like two religious people claiming 'To be Set-apart' (Pharisees), arguing among your self who sees Yeshua clearly; when both quote from people who couldn't see the deliberate contradictions in John, Paul, and Simon either.

Thus when it is stated the blind leading the blind (Matthew 15:14); do you see?

In my opinion.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Do you consider yourself a real Christian?

I haven't met a Christian yet who doesn't consider him- or herself a real Christian. What is harder to find are Christians of different sects who consider some Christians of other sects "real Christians". I'd go so far as saying that, of all the religions, Christianity suffers most from the number of Christian heretics.

 

[Crosstian]

Glad you found the reply useful adrian009. Just keep in mind, that only three entries show, and only one of which was actually written by sister Ellen G White. For instance, the book "Evangelism" is a compilation, put together after she died, and the bold headings are not by her but later compromised editors. The second entry for the "SDA Bible Commentary" which uses the word is given in the blue section, which is not by sister White, but later compromised editors. The third entry is by her, and is a specifically defined use, referring [1] to lust of the flesh, [2] lust of the eyes and [3] the pride of life.

However, if you want to find what she wrote about Godhead, I can help on that also, just look up "three", "threefold", "trio", "Godhead". For instance:

"... The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the eternal Godhead ..." - Ms 45, May 14, 1904, par. 16; May 14, 1904

[Please note, that it does not say "the eternal God", but rather "the eternal Godhead". The word Godhead is used differently than the word God.]​

"… The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. ..." - Lt 12, January 21, 1901, par. 10; January 21, 1901​

"... There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ. ..." - Ms 21, 1906 (November 1905) par. 11​

"... The three great and glorious heavenly characters are present on the occasion of baptism. All the human capabilities are to be henceforth consecrated powers to do service for God in representing the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost upon whom they depend. All heaven is represented by these three in covenant relation with the new life. “If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things that are above, where Christ sitteth at the right hand of God.” …" - Ms 45, 1904 (May 14, 1904) par. 18

"... In the first chapter of Second Peter is presented the progressive work in the Christian life. The whole chapter is a lesson of deep importance. If man, in acquiring the Christian graces, works on the plan of addition, God has pledged Himself to work in his behalf upon the plan of multiplication. “Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.” [Verse 2.] The work is laid out before every soul that has acknowledged his faith in Jesus Christ by baptism, and has become a receiver of the pledge from the three persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Ms57-1900 (August 12, 1900) par. 11 …" - Ms 57, 1900 (August 12, 1900) par. 11​

"... All the intelligences of heaven are in this army. And more than angels are in the ranks. The Holy Spirit, the representative of the Captain of the Lord's host, comes down to direct the battle. Our infirmities may be many, our sins and mistakes grievous; but the grace of God is for all who seek it with contrition. The power of Omnipotence is enlisted in behalf of those who trust in God. {DA 352.2} ..." - Desire of Ages 352.2 (1898)

[please note:

[3] The Holy Spirit is an intelligence, having the power of Omnipotence, directing the battle, and is more than angels, and is in the ranks, enlisted in, of the army of Heaven, and is the representative of:

[2] the Captain [Ruler/Prince], Jesus Christ/Michael the Archangel, the Son of the Father, of:

[1] the Lord [the Father]]​

"... Here is where the work of the Holy Ghost comes in, after your baptism. You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life—to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of the three holiest beings in heaven, who are able to keep you from falling. You are to reveal that you are dead to sin; your life is hid with Christ in God. Hidden “with Christ in God”—wonderful transformation. This is a most precious promise. When I feel oppressed and hardly know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, I just call upon the three great Worthies, and say: You know I cannot do this work in my own strength. You must work in me, and by me, and through me, sanctifying my tongue, sanctifying my spirit, sanctifying my words, and bringing me into a position where my spirit shall be susceptible to the movings of the Holy Spirit of God upon my mind and character. Ms95-1906 (October 20, 1906) par. 29

And this is the prayer that every one of us may offer. ..." - Ms 95, 1906 (October 20, 1906) par. 29
​

Having done a thorough study, if you need more, ask.

 

[Crosstian]

I haven't met a Christian yet who doesn't consider him- or herself a real Christian. ....

I said "real Christianity" [1]. You really need to read s...l...o...w...e...r.

 

[Terry Sampson]

I said "real Christianity" [1]. You really need to read s...l...o...w...e...r.

And YOU really need to look closer and pay attention to WHO it is that I am responding to in a post.

 

[Crosstian]

And YOU really need to look closer and pay attention to WHO it is that I am responding to in a post.

It was obvious.

 

[Crosstian]

Moving on. (ytml)

 

[Terry Sampson]

It was obvious.

Obviously not, because if it had been, you wouldn't have bothered to try to correct me.

 

[Terry Sampson]

If we are comparing the concept of God between Judaism, Christianity and Islam it would be appropriate to start with the trinity.

So belief in a triune god?
Judaism No
Christianity Yes
Islam No

Now that we've got that out of the way, let's move on to Judaism's YHWH and Islam's Allah.
However, to avoid the freeway traffic in this thread, I propose we engage in a One-on-One discussion. What say you?

 

[dybmh]

Baha'u'llah prophesied of me by name in my understanding of the correlation of the texts, and since time is close to the Great Tribulation, as mankind looms close to WW3 God sent me before it, to try to fix the religious dilemma.

"How great the blessedness that awaiteth the king who will arise to aid My Cause in My kingdom, who will detach himself from all else but Me! Such a king is numbered with the companions of the Crimson Ark--the Ark which God hath prepared for the people of Bahá. All must glorify his name, must reverence his station, and aid him to unlock the cities with the keys of My Name (Zion), the omnipotent Protector of all that inhabit the visible and invisible kingdoms. Such a king is the very eye of mankind, the luminous ornament on the brow of creation, the fountainhead of blessings unto the whole world. Offer up, O people of Bahá, your substance, nay your very lives, for his assistance." - (Bahá'u'lláh, Kitáb-i-Aqdas, 1873)

Revelation 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar (Sandalphon) in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God (Zion - Psalms 146:10, Psalms 147:12, Isaiah 52:7), the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name (Sananda).

All the messengers of the One Source are on the same side, the religious people who choose labels are against us; do you get the outcome of the Final Battle?

Like Armageddon means "a mountain of people gathered together"; it is possible we intellectually fix the ideas, yet only if we all work together - Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promised Day Is Come, Pages 71-74

As a Baha'i you are meant to be marketing me to people, it makes no sense me sitting here arguing on my own I've been sent from Heaven, and have known it since birth.

In my opinion.

I'm sorry my friend, I have to call you on the Zander / Zion / Saldalphon thing. We've talked about it before... do you remember?

 

[dybmh]

Now that we've got that out of the way, let's move on to Judaism's YHWH and Islam's Allah.
However, to avoid the freeway traffic in this thread, I propose we engage in a One-on-One discussion. What say you?

Just curious: Is your focus on how each of these are portrayed in scripture? Or is it a literal compare and contrast which may include theology as well as the texts?

 

[Katzpur]

IMO, theoretically, Mormons have an infinite number of Gods and Goddesses.

No more than are mentioned in the Bible, though.

 

[Windwalker]

The sura is about ‘not’ deifying historic religious figures. The problem with making it about the trinity is Mary isn't part of the Christian trinity. If you want to believe Muhammad was clueless about Christianity then go ahead.

What I have believed since I first read that many years ago in 1981, long before Islam was a very well recognized religion here in the States, was that Muhammad's understanding of Christianity was what he was exposed to at the time, applying his perspective to what it was teaching. This is no different than any other person of another religion trying to understand a religion from the outside, then and today, like a Christian trying to understand Hinduism and getting most of it wrong. People's outsider perspective will naturally bring in errors of what that other religion actually believes from the insider perspective.

I don't think that translates into me saying he was "clueless". Misunderstanding, yes. Clueless, no. That's too harsh.

So then I have to ask, if this is not about the Triune formulation of Christianity, why does the passage create this imagined dialog between Allah and Jesus about his followers believing that Jesus and Mary were two gods in addition to Allah, that there are three gods in effect in the minds of Jesus' followers that he, Allah, needs to clear up with Jesus. "Did you teach them that? That you and Mary are two gods along with Allah?"

That's the context that I'm hearing. It's about the perceived beliefs of Christians that needs to be corrected by Muhammad, that Jesus has to say, "No, there is no God but one God! Mary and I are not co-equal gods.". It's about correcting Christian belief. What other Christian belief about Jesus being God is there besides the Trinity doctrine? He recognized they were claiming he was God, and this seems to be trying to correct that belief. And them mistakenly adding Mary in as the third deity in the Trinity was simply a misperception of Christian theology as an outsider to the religion, like the Christian getting stuff wrong about Hinduism does today.

That's how I read it then, and still do now. I certainly could be wrong, but the context of that comment, correcting Christian beliefs, stands out strongly to me. Is there another context I'm unaware of, that would necessitate a conversation with Jesus and Allah to set the record straight? What other than the Trinity doctrine, are they trying to correct here? Is there some belief that Jesus and Mary were gods other than the connection to the Trinity that I am unaware of? As I said, I could be wrong, as I'm no expert on Islam.

Instead they were pagans who worshipped many gods. Muhammad taught them to be like the Christians and Jews and worship One God. He was also clear where the Christians had gone astray.

Such as including a verse to correct Christians in believing Jesus was God? It seems to me, that verse was very much about correct where they had gone astray. I'm not being cruel here. It's just being rational about it. I don't know how else to read that rationally. What was the context? He clearly believed Christians had gone astray with the Trinity.

And this is a common misunderstanding of what the Trinity is you see again and again by those who are outsiders. To take the Trinity as three gods, or two gods besides the Father, or Allah, is a common misperception. My only point is, Muhammad reflected that same misconception in his dialog between Allah and Jesus. With the information I have, that's what stands out to me logically. Christians had gone astray, and Muhammad needed to have Jesus saying to Muhammad's followers that Jesus did not condone that error. It was to protect his followers, to give them an answer from their prophet ahead of time when they hear Christians speak of the divinity of the Christ.

It doesn't spell out who are the three characters of the trinity in any of the verses. The Quran is not a book about Christianity. They are seen as revealed verses from God to the audience Muhammad communicated with and beyond.

Why is that verse addressing the divinity of Jesus, that Jesus needs to correct Christians about, if it's not about the Trinity?

Its not how I see it. One who is arrogant and corrupts religion through inserting false teachings will inevitably be faced with the error of his ways either in this world or the next. There has been atrocious behaviour and oppression of others in the name of the Christian God. Do you really thing God lets tyranny and oppression slide? Where would be the justice?

It would be a bit of a sideline for me to discuss at length my thoughts about this here, but if you're interested in how I approach this question about the justice of God expressed in religious thoughts, I'll direct you to my thread I started here: How to Read the Bible, and Still be a Christian

As Christianity emphasised the Divine nature of the Messenger (Christ) and not just the Message, Islam emphasised the human nature of each Messenger. Despite criticism about deifying both Jesus and Mary, both characters are revered in Islam, Jesus especially as like Muhammad and Moses who brought Divine revelation through the Quran and Torah, Jesus brought the Gospel. There is no distinction between Moses, Jesus and Muhammad.

According to Christian teachings there is a distinction. Muhammed wanted his followers to believe Christians got it wrong, and he had the authority to override what they believed and correct it for them. Yes? While they pay honor to him, it is a version of Jesus that Christians did not recognize.

There are problems with attributing Muhammad's nativity of Jesus narrative in the Surah of Maryam to the Syriac Infancy Gospel. It sounds as if you have made up your mind about Muhammad and I wish you well.

I resent the implication that I've "made up my mind". I am a very open minded person, not closed minded. I do however have an expectation that things have to fit the data critically when it comes to something like this. This is a reference to historical information. Did Christians believe Jesus and Mary were gods alongside God? Clearly Muhammad believed they did. Rationally, the only explanation I can see at this point is the one I've stated, and my supporting reasons for what I provisionally conclude what I am. If I can see a possible valid other reason, that can be defended reasonably well, I can and would change my mind.

Don't mistake my expecting reasonable answers, with an a priori dismissal on religious grounds. That's cynicism. I am not a cynic. And to try to cast me as one, is uncalled for.