"SC Police Hastily Scratch “Lord” and “Matthew 5:9” Off Monument...."

[Epic Beard Man]

So long as my tax money was not spent on it.

Of course your state taxes would fund it.

 

[Enoch07]

Of course your state taxes would fund it.

Did you read your own article? The item in question was donated by private citizens. No tax money was spent on it at all.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Did you read your own article? The item in question was donated by private citizens. No tax money was spent on it at all.

You realize that monuments of that nature require maintenance, cleaning, installation and zoning, right?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Currently on display at the Metropolitan Museum of Art:

Permanent display at the Boston Public Library:

Displayed at the Brooklyn Museum:

All of these are displayed in public property that is funded by the public.
Should they be removed?

P.S. How the baby Jesus got a hold of a red crayon back then is beyond me.

Museums also display classical art of a variety of other religions - the art being religious is not a requirement, or even a consideration, for putting them up for public view. They are put up explicitly for their artistic and historical significance (hence them being in museums of art), so they can not be said to be promoting any specific religion. Putting up religious art on display for the purpose of art and history is not even remotely the same as attaching a specific religion's message as a tagline to a government department. One is a explicit acknowledgement of a government department endorsing a specific religious view, the other is a secular presentation of works of artistic and historic significance.

Also, one is unconstitutional. The other isn't.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

If I lived in a community of Satanist I would expect it. So long as my tax money was not spent on it. Of course I would move out of that community and find a more suitable community for myself, rather than throw a tantrum and make the whole community suit my 1 individual need.

Boy, it sure is a good thing that you'll never live in such a community, then. Otherwise, you might have to actually stand by what you say.

Things being as they are, however, the predominant religion that ends up being endorsed where you live happens to be the one you belong to - how convenient! It must be really gratifying to talk down to people who disagree with you and tell them that they should do something you'll probably never have to do in order to cowtow to your specific beliefs. Must make you feel really big.

 

[Enoch07]

You realize that monuments of that nature require maintenance, cleaning, installation and zoning, right?

Irrelevant, tax money is used on roads and infrastructure that churches use.

The govt is just not allowed to purchase a item that promotes religion. They still can provide basic services. Cleaning, maintenance, and zoning are included with basic services like infrastructure.

 

[Enoch07]

Boy, it sure is a good thing that you'll never live in such a community, then. Otherwise, you might have to actually stand by what you say.

Uh I lived in Germany for 5 years. I didn't like it so I left. Unlike most I actually practice what I preach. Unlike all the progressives that threatened to leave the U.S. if Trump got elected.

Things being as they are, however, the predominant religion that ends up being endorsed where you live happens to be the one you belong to - how convenient!

Well yes, it is convenient. That is what you want to have in your community. Why would anyone purposely live in a community that doesn't reflect their own beliefs and morals?

It must be really gratifying to talk down to people who disagree with you and tell them that they should do something you'll probably never have to do in order to cowtow to your specific beliefs.

I've already done it. Actions speak louder than words. Not only have I said, and done it. I have no problems telling someone to do the same.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Irrelevant, tax money is used on roads and infrastructure that churches use.

... And? Every religious organization of every kind also uses those things. The point is endorsement of a specific religion by government in unconstitutional, so using government funds and taxes to endorse a specific religion is illegal.

The govt is just not allowed to purchase a item that promotes religion. They still can provide basic services. Cleaning, maintenance, and zoning are included with basic services like infrastructure.

Except this is a monument on government property emblazoned with a speicfic religious message that is to be maintained, cleaned and zoned using government funds. I.E: a governmentally-funded endorsement of a specific religion.

That's unconstitutional.

 

[74x12]

Why are atheists so offended by mentions of God or scriptures? If God's not real then it should be no big deal.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Uh I lived in Germany for 5 years. I didn't like it so I left. Unlike most I actually practice what I preach. Unlike all the progressives that threatened to leave the U.S. if Trump got elected.

But you'll never be in a situation where your specific religious viewpoint isn't the one being endorsed over another - unless you want to assert that this was somehow the case in Germany. The point is, it's very easy to criticize others of overreacting when something like this happens when you're the person who belongs to a community who happen to be positively affected by it. It's no different to a white person wondering why black kids can't "just leave public schools and go to black schools" when they face discrimination there.

Well yes, it is convenient. That is what you want to have in your community. Why would anyone purposely live in a community that doesn't reflect their own beliefs and morals?

Actually, America does. It has separation of Church and State, which means that things like this are illegal and shouldn't be happening. That's why so many love and live in America; so when that ideal isn't lived up to, they have a genuine grievance. It'd be like you moving to a country or community that claims that it endorses a specifically Christian view, then them putting a large monument to Islam in the middle of the public square. You would probably not be too happy about that, but if the Muslim community there just told you to "put up with it or leave" you'd probably be a bit indignant, wouldn't you?

America is secular. Secularism is built into its constitutions and laws. This is one of the reasons America is home to such a diverse people, and things like this are a betrayal of that value. You're wrong when you say people should go to a different community, because America is SUPPOSED to reflect and respect ALL communities. That's why they are there. What you're essentially saying here is a complete contradiction of everything America was supposed to stand for, which makes you a pretty poor American.

I've already done it. Actions speak louder than words. Not only have I said, and done it. I have no problems telling someone to do the same.

So why did you move to America?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Why are atheists so offended by mentions of God or scriptures? If God's not real then it should be no big deal.

Because it's literally illegal for the government or government agency to endorse a specific religion.

 

[74x12]

Because it's literally illegal for the government or government agency to endorse a specific religion.

It would be illegal for them to codify it into law. This is a monument. Artwork. That's all it is.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It would be illegal for them to codify it into law. This is a monument. Artwork. That's all it is.

It's a monument representing a government department with explicit endorsement of a religious doctrine on it. It's a government endorsement of religion.

This isn't ambiguous. It's law.

 

[74x12]

It's a monument representing a government department with explicit endorsement of a religious doctrine on it. It's a government endorsement of religion.

This isn't ambiguous. It's law.

What religious doctrine(teaching) is endorsed? "blessed are peacemakers"? Do you disagree with that?

And I disagree. It's not law. It's abuse of law.

 

[Enoch07]

The point is endorsement of a specific religion by government in unconstitutional, so using government funds and taxes to endorse a specific religion is illegal.

It's not being endorsed though. It was donated by private citizens.

That's unconstitutional.

Incorrect

It would only be unconstitutional if the govt spent money to purchase the plague. Cleaning, maintenance, etc does not count because these are in the budget with the item there or not.

 

[Enoch07]

It's no different to a white person wondering why black kids can't "just leave public schools and go to black schools" when they face discrimination there.

I've never heard a white person say this other than white supremacist and progressives that want segregation.

Actually, America does. It has separation of Church and State, which means that things like this are illegal and shouldn't be happening.

You don't understand what separation of Church and State is then. Separation of Church and State is to insure against a theocracy. A prayer dedicated to fallen police officers is not establishing a theocracy or endorsing Christianity it is to help families cope with loss. Like any of you care about them, you just care about being offended yourself.

America is secular.

Nope, America is free to be whatever it wants. The govt is secular and non-theocratic.

Secularism is built into its constitutions and laws.

Nope that would be against the Freedom of Religion.

You're wrong when you say people should go to a different community, because America is SUPPOSED to reflect and respect ALL communities.

As it supposed to be.

But obviously some of you don't want to respect a Christian community. Hence this this thread.

What you're essentially saying here is a complete contradiction of everything America was supposed to stand for, which makes you a pretty poor American.

No, what secularist that threaten to sue over anything remotely religous is a contradiction. You are projecting your fascism onto us.

So why did you move to America?

Because it's a much more free country. Less authoritarian than the E.U.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

What religious doctrine(teaching) is endorsed?

Christianity.

"blessed are peacemakers"? Do you disagree with that?

It's not about agreeing with the message - it's about endorsement of specific religion.

And I disagree. It's not law. It's abuse of law.

Establishment Clause - Wikipedia

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It's not being endorsed though. It was donated by private citizens.

The provider is irrelevant - government agencies cannot legally display it.

Incorrect

It would only be unconstitutional if the govt spent money to purchase the plague. Cleaning, maintenance, etc does not count because these are in the budget with the item there or not.

It is still government endorsing a specific religion and using funds to do so.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I've never heard a white person say this other than white supremacist and progressives that want segregation.

Then you should understand that it's not a good argument.

You don't understand what separation of Church and State is then. Separation of Church and State is to insure against a theocracy.

Actually, it's two parts: to prevent theocracy, and to not inhibit the free exercise of religion, which includes not promoting one religion over another.

A prayer dedicated to fallen police officers is not establishing a theocracy or endorsing Christianity it is to help families cope with loss. Like any of you care about them, you just care about being offended yourself.

This is just a mindless personal attack and will be ignored.

Nope, America is free to be whatever it wants. The govt is secular and non-theocratic.

The American constitution ensures freedom of and freedom from religion, and ensure religion has no power in establishing law. America is secular.

Nope that would be against the Freedom of Religion.

False. Secularism ENSURES freedom of religion.

As it supposed to be.

But obviously some of you don't want to respect a Christian community. Hence this this thread.

America isn't a Christian community.

No, what secularist that threaten to sue over anything remotely religous is a contradiction. You are projecting your fascism onto us.

You are the one projecting. They are not suing because it is "anything remotely religious". They are suing because it is an explicitly illegal, governmentally endorsed and maintained establishment of a specific religion.

Because it's a much more free country. Less authoritarian than the E.U.

You mean, like the values of separation of Church and State?

I mean, if you don't like living in a country which endorses secular values and enforces separation of Church and state, maybe you're the one who needs to move?

 

[74x12]

Christianity.

Ridiculous.

It's not about agreeing with the message - it's about endorsement of specific religion.

I could quote people all day without endorsing everything they stand for. It's just a reference to a single verse of scripture. It's not a Sunday school class for crying out loud.

Establishment Clause - Wikipedia

Did you read that wiki link? Because it says right there "Furthermore, it does not prevent the placement of religious symbols on government premises."