"SC Police Hastily Scratch “Lord” and “Matthew 5:9” Off Monument...."

[ImmortalFlame]

Ridiculous.

So, to you, the Bible isn't in any way associated with Christainity?

I could quote people all day without endorsing everything they stand for. It's just a reference to a single verse of scripture. It's not a Sunday school class for crying out loud.

It doesn't have to be a ten-foot statue of Jesus bleeding on the cross in order to contravene separation of Church and State. To quote the Bible as a standard for your government-funded organization is a breach of that. I'm sorry if the law upsets you, but deal with it. And don't displace your anger onto the people who want to see the law upheld.

Did you read that wiki link? Because it says right there "Furthermore, it does not prevent the placement of religious symbols on government premises."

This isn't a "religious symbol", it's an explicit endorsement of a specific religion, which IS prohibited by the establishment clause:

"The Establishment Clause is a limitation placed upon the United States Congress preventing it from passing legislation forcing an establishment of religion, broadly making it illegal for the government to promote theocracy or promote a specific religion with taxes."

 

[74x12]

So, to you, the Bible isn't in any way associated with Christainity?

The whole Bible? Most of the time; yes. But this isn't the whole Bible we are discussing.

It doesn't have to be a ten-foot state of Jesus bleeding on the cross in order to contravene separation of Church and State. To quote the Bible as a standard for your government-funded organization is a breach of that. I'm sorry if the law upsets you, but deal with it. And don't displace your anger onto the people who want to see the law upheld.

Stop, who is quoting the Bible as a "standard" here? I thought we were talking about a monument? It's artwork you know that right?

I'm not angry. Are you? And there is no law to upset me. Just misapplication of the law; at least so far.

This isn't a "religious symbol", it's an explicit endorsement of a specific religion, which IS prohibited by the establishment clause:

"The Establishment Clause is a limitation placed upon the United States Congress preventing it from passing legislation forcing an establishment of religion, broadly making it illegal for the government to promote theocracy or promote a specific religion with taxes."

No it's not explicit endorsement of a specific religion. That's just your bizarre interpretation of it. The fact is it seems to me to be a religious symbol.

 

[Enoch07]

The provider is irrelevant - government agencies cannot legally display it.

Nope the provider is crucial. Private citizens using their own money to donate something to commemorate fallen police officers is allowable, even with scripture on it. If the local community is majority Christian, and they are ok with it, then its perfectly legal.

Local govts have the abtility to establish their own laws separate from federal laws. This is how states have decriminalized marijuana. Now if you want to play this game of federal law trumps all then we can play that game. Time to lock up a couple of states worth of people violating federal law.

It is still government endorsing a specific religion and using funds to do so.

Nope you have no idea what you are talking about. Show me where tax money was spent to purchase the item. If not then the state is not endorsing anything.

Then you should understand that it's not a good argument

Then you should stop endorsing segregation.

Actually, it's two parts: to prevent theocracy, and to not inhibit the free exercise of religion, which includes not promoting one religion over another.

What religion is being promoted over another?

This is just a mindless personal attack and will be ignored.

Nope its just stating a fact that shines a spotlight on selfish atheist.

America is secular.

Nah, the vast majority are religous.

Secularism ENSURES freedom of religion.

Nope, it ensures freedom from religion of an individual.

America isn't a Christian community.

Most communities in America are, it's just a fact.

They are suing because it is an explicitly illegal, governmentally endorsed and maintained establishment of a specific religion.

How are they endorsing it? The prayer is dedicate to the officers. Not to the public.

I mean, if you don't like living in a country which endorses secular values and enforces separation of Church and state, maybe you're the one who needs to move?

Nonsensical you don't even understand what that means.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The whole Bible? Most of the time; yes. But this isn't the whole Bible we are discussing.

The monument quotes from the Bible. Stop being obtuse.

Stop, who is quoting the Bible as a "standard" here? I thought we were talking about a monument? It's artwork you know that right?

A monument that is specifically quoting the Bible, intended to stand as a representation OF a government department on government property.

I'm not angry. Are you? And there is no law to upset me. Just misapplication of the law; at least so far.
No it's not explicit endorsement of a specific religion. That's just your bizarre interpretation of it. The fact is it seems to me to be a religious symbol.

That's ridiculous. The symbol of Christanity isn't a rock, and I don't see the point in debating with you if you're going to be so blatantly dishonest.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Nope the provider is crucial. Private citizens using their own money to donate something to commemorate fallen police officers is allowable, even with scripture on it. If the local community is majority Christian, and they are ok with it, then its perfectly legal.

People can donate whatever they want. Government agencies, however, aren't allowed to display them wherever they want. That would be the case whether the item was donated for free or paid for entirely.

Local govts have the abtility to establish their own laws separate from federal laws. This is how states have decriminalized marijuana. Now if you want to play this game of federal law trumps all then we can play that game. Time to lock up a couple of states worth of people violating federal law.

What are you talking about? Do you not understand what the Establishment Clause means?

Nope you have no idea what you are talking about. Show me where tax money was spent to purchase the item. If not then the state is not endorsing anything.

It wasn't spent purchasing the item, but it was spent maintaining and zoning the item. And to explicitly promote a specific religion is to endorse a religion.

Then you should stop endorsing segregation.

I have never endorsed segregation.

What religion is being promoted over another?

Christianity.

I'm getting tired of answering that question. Why do people forget what religion the Bible is the holy book of?

Nope its just stating a fact that shines a spotlight on selfish atheist.

Another personal attack. What a good Christian you are.

Nah, the vast majority are religous.

But there is no state-sponsored religion - as state, America is secular. It provides room for ALL religions and does not governmentally endorse any one religion.

Nope, it ensures freedom from religion of an individual.

Wrong. It ensures all people have the freedom to practice whatever religion they want, without discrimination or prejudice.

Most communities in America are, it's just a fact.

Irrelevant - America is founded as a secular nation with a secular constitution that promotes separation of Church and State. That's your country's actual values. If you don't like it, move.

How are they endorsing it? The prayer is dedicate to the officers. Not to the public.

A prayer from the Bible that explicitly advances the idea of officers of the law being agents of the Christian God.

I've been saying it a lot recently, but: stop being obtuse.

Nonsensical you don't even understand what that means.

I know exactly what it means. Apparently, you do not. So you made the mistake of moving to a country which doesn't hold the same values as you do - the value that the government is forbidden from promoting one religious viewpoint or endorsing a specific religion.

This isn't me making stuff up. It's fairly widely known.

 

[Enoch07]

Government agencies, however, aren't allowed to display them wherever they want.

If the local community views it as ok they can. It's up to the local community.

What are you talking about? Do you not understand what the Establishment Clause means?

You don't apparently.

And to explicitly promote a specific religion is to endorse a religion.

How is it endorsing a religion though? A prayer for fallen cops isn't promoting religion. Its promoting compassion for the grieving families.

I have never endorsed segregation.

Yes you are.

Christianity.

How though?

Another personal attack.

Nope it's just a fact. If you think it's a bad thing perhaps change?

America is secular.

Nope America is mostly religious folk.

It ensures all people have the freedom to practice whatever religion they want, without discrimination or prejudice.

But not dead cops families eh?

If you don't like it, move.

Racist

A prayer from the Bible that explicitly advances the idea of officers of the law being agents of the Christian God.

Again you have no idea what you are talking about. Stop being offended for 5 minutes and think about it.

I know exactly what it means.

Obviously not, you are abusing a law to avoid seeing something that offends you. Separation of Church and State isn't protection from seeing anything religious.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

If the local community views it as ok they can. It's up to the local community.

No, it isn't. A "local community" can't decide that their government should endorse or promote a specific religion. That's absurd.

How is it endorsing a religion though? A prayer for fallen cops isn't promoting religion. Its promoting compassion for the grieving families.

It's quoting the Bible. Seriously, how do people not get this?

And where is the compassion for all the dead cops who WEREN'T Christian? I'm sure that there are some cops who would actually explicitly NOT want a Christian prayer said about them. Where's their monument?

Just admit it: the purpose of this monument is to promote a religious agenda. That's why you like it.

Yes you are.

When? Quote a specific instance of me endorsing segregation.

How though?

This is getting silly now.

The Bible is the Christian Holy book. The monument quotes the Bible. The monument specifically quotes the Bible with the intent of linking police officers as extensions of the will of the Christian God. It is promoting a Christian view.

Nope it's just a fact. If you think it's a bad thing perhaps change?

It's really not. I'm actually selfless enough to recognize the benefit of living in a society where all religious views are accepted and no one religion has a monopoly. You, apparently, don't. You're selfish and want your religion propped up at the expense of others.

Nope America is mostly religious folk.

It's a secular country.

But not dead cops families eh?

You're being silly again. You can have a monument to fallen cops without endorsing a specific religion. In fact, not to do so is disrespectful to the lives and families of cops who did not belong to that religion.

Racist

Meh, being obtuse for the sake of humour is okay.

Again you have no idea what you are talking about. Stop being offended for 5 minutes and think about it.

Not once have I ever said I was "offended". What I have said is that it is illegal and unconstitutional. These are facts, hence why it was altered.

Obviously not, you are abusing a law to avoid seeing something that offends you. Separation of Church and State isn't protection from seeing anything religious.

It prevents government from endorsing a specific religion. A religious display on private land is fine. Religious symbols are fine. Religious practices are fine. Promoting a specific religion using government funds and resources, or attempting to link government agencies or departments to a specific religion, is not. Those last two are explicitly illegal and unconstitutional.

Once again, you're missing the point by being willfully ignorant about what the issue is. It's isn't about offence, it's about what the laws of your country actually say. I very much doubt you would be kicking up so much of a fuss if it were a satanist, Islamic or atheist monument. You want the laws to apply to every other religion than your own, so don't pretend I'm the one being prejudiced.

 

[Enoch07]

No, it isn't. A "local community" can't decide that their government should endorse or promote a specific religion.

It's not endorsing unless it paid to have it built. Simple as that.

It's quoting the Bible.

So?

If what you say is true every atheist is promoting religion when the post scripture to debate.

Displaying scripture is not endorsement.

Where's their monument?

It's the same monument. The scripture on there doesn't effect them one way or the other.

This is getting silly now.

It's been silly the past 20 years since anti-religious ideologies have been actively seeking to get rid of religion.

It's really not.

But it is. You care more about your won feelings and being offended than the for the dead cops.

It's a secular >govt in a religious< country .

Fixed it for ya.

You can have a monument to fallen cops without endorsing a specific religion.

Quoting the bible is not endorsement.

Not once have I ever said I was "offended".

But you are and so many others as well.

It prevents government from endorsing a specific religion.

You still haven't shown how quoting scripture equates to endorsement. Especially when the govt didn't commission the project, it was a donation.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It's not enduring unless it paid to have it built. Simple as that.

This doesn't even make sense.

So?

If what you say is true every atheist is promoting religion when the post scripture to debate.

Displaying scripture is not endorsement.

To paste scripture onto a monument intended to represent your organization is to promote it.

Surely you understand the difference between referencing something in the context of debate and placing that same thing on a public monument in order to promote a specific message or image, right? This monument isn't a post on a forum. It's... a monument.

It's the same monument. The scripture on there doesn't effect them one way or the other.

Then why have the quotes on there at all? If the text is irrelevant.

It's been silly the past 20 years since anti-religious ideologies have been actively seeking to get rid of religion.

Except that's not what's happening. All that's happening is that a privileged position certain religions have been holding, and their ability to contravene law and the constitution, is finally being challenged.

But it is. You care more about your won feelings and being offended than the for the dead cops.

Just plain wrong and dishonest. Please don't make baseless insinuations about me or how much I care about dead cops.

Fixed it for ya.

Nope, it's a secular country founded on secular principles by secular men with the intention of practicing secular values. It's a secular country with religious communities in it.

Quoting the bible is not endorsement.

It is in the context of a monument meant to represent a government agency.

But you are and so many others as well.

I've already told you I'm not offended. You can either accept that or continue to lie and make yourself look bad.

You still haven't shown how quoting scripture equates to endorsement. Especially when the govt didn't commission the project, it was a donation.

If you don't understand why using scripture to represent a government department is promoting and endorsing Christianity, I doubt there's much I can say to teach you anything.

And I see how you've avoided admitting that you don't care about the non-Christian cops who are dead. Which you clearly must do, since you think the only cops deserving of honouring are the ones who died and were Christian.

I mean, that is your position, right?

 

[Father Heathen]

*sigh* America is officially a secular nation regardless of how religious the population itself may be, as the nation itself has no official church/religion.

 

[Enoch07]

This doesn't even make sense.

Autocorrect error I fixed it here:

It's not endorsing unless it paid to have it built. Simple as that.

Then why have the quotes on there at all? If the text is irrelevant.

For the families to offer some solace.

Just plain wrong and dishonest.

Secularist threatens to sue wasting countless taxpayer money and time in courts to remove some words they don't like on a monument without any regard for the fallen or their families. Enough said.

Nope, it's a secular country founded on secular principles by secular men with the intention of practicing secular values.

A history lesson.

Theistic rationalism - Wikipedia

"Some scholars have argued that the term properly describes the beliefs of some of the prominent Founding Fathers of the United States, including George Washington, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, James Wilson, and Thomas Jefferson"

It is in the context of a monument meant to represent a government agency.

The monument doesn't represent the agency. It represents fallen cops.

I've already told you I'm not offended.

I don't believe ya.

If you don't understand why using scripture to represent a government department is promoting and endorsing Christianity

Only if the govt agency paid for it.

 

[Father Heathen]

Why are atheists so offended by mentions of God or scriptures? If God's not real then it should be no big deal.

I don't imagine anyone would be happy with a government that's supposed to represent everyone including them that would use their tax dollars to promote religious views that they disagree with.

 

[Stevicus]

Why are atheists so offended by mentions of God or scriptures? If God's not real then it should be no big deal.

I think it's considered more of a legal matter relating to the Constitution and the Separation of Church and State.

Some atheists may be offended, though. For me, I don't think it's any big deal, as I don't believe in any God, so there's no deity to actually offend by mentioning it.

I don't believe in Santa Claus, but if someone wants to go around dressed as Santa Claus, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Sometimes, I might even play along and temporarily "believe" in Santa Claus just for fun.

 

[Enoch07]

I don't imagine anyone would be happy with a government that's supposed to represent everyone including them that would use their tax dollars to promote religious views that they disagree with.

The item was donated by private citizens. The govt spent no tax money on it.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Did you read your own article? The item in question was donated by private citizens. No tax money was spent on it at all.

It wasn't my article and yes I read it. I was just saying as a-matter-of-fact that typical police equipment and other things are typically funded by state taxes ergo people in such and such state are paying for it.

 

[Father Heathen]

It's not being endorsed though. It was donated by private citizens.

But even by accepting and displaying it, unless they planned to accept and display any and every gift from any and every religious group that offered one, it would be favoritism and thus in violation of the establishment clause.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Was it actually causing injury?

Can anyone actually quantify this? I could certainly see it help to cause non-Christian residents in the area to feel marginalized when they saw it and noted the religious references. I, personally, wouldn't give a crap, and it wouldn't move me in the slightest one way or the other, but I'm obviously not everyone - since I am secure enough in my principles and ideals that I don't need things like rocks with special snowflake words carved into them to validate my position, nor am I so insecure that I feel the need to deny anyone who does need such things.

 

[Father Heathen]

The item was donated by private citizens. The govt spent no tax money on it.

Does it levitate? Otherwise the land that it sits upon and it's upkeep are paid for by the people.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

For the families to offer some solace.

But only the Christian families, apparently.

Secularist threatens to sue wasting countless taxpayer money and time in courts to remove some words they don't like on a monument without any regard for the fallen or their families. Enough said.

If you wish to see it like that, go ahead. In reality, it's protecting the rights of everyone to express their religion and be protected from government sponsorship of religion. If you don't like it, tough.

A history lesson.

Theistic rationalism - Wikipedia

"Some scholars have argued that the term properly describes the beliefs of some of the prominent Founding Fathers of the United States, including George Washington, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, James Wilson, and Thomas Jefferson"

You mean... Some of the founding fathers were THEISTS!

Jeeves! Bring me my "surprised" trousers!

No, seriously, the fact that you think pointing this out even remotely contradicts the fact that the USA was explicitly founded on secular principles is actually quite weird.

The monument doesn't represent the agency. It represents fallen cops.

No, it represents the Bible.

I don't believe ya.

Believe what you want. I believe that's the whole point of my argument.

Only if the govt agency paid for it.

Nope. That's not how it works. And they're still paying for the maintenance of it.

Also, I see you carefully avoided answering my question about whether or not you care about the cops or families of cops who died who weren't Christian. That's very telling.

 

[Enoch07]

But even by accepting and displaying it, unless they planned to accept and display any and every gift from any and every religious group that offered one, it would be favoritism and thus in violation of the establishment clause.

Ah but it's up to each individual local community to decide that for itself. Not up to you unless you live in that specific community.