Yes, and the reason (non) historical Jesus is fun is because it is so trivial, in my opinion. There's nothing like debating for the sake of debating especially over a topic that makes no matter.Nope. But I am just as wary of unwarranted skepticism as I am of overly credulous belief.
I like facts.And though the historicity of Jesus is (to me) a trivial issue, it's a fun issue.
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Scholar: Jesus Thought He was the Messiah, but Not God
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
technomage
Finding my own way
Abso-frickin-lutely!
It also promotes itself as a useful heuristic for distinguishing between the possible and the probable - yet you love the razor while decrying the distinction. It's a bit funny :yes:Meh. Occam's razor promises a _close_ shave, but not necessarily a _smooth_ one.
technomage
Finding my own way
I note the razor as useful--not as definitive.
If more evidence for Q comes to light, I will certainly reconsider my position. However, as things stand, either of the two hypotheses I mentioned earlier will suffice.
SoulDaemon
Member
Jesus was a man, within him was the Holy Spirit from/of God. So I would consider that he was a spiritually enlightened person, don't know for sure though.
It always messes my mind up when I try to comprehend the trinity.
It always messes my mind up when I try to comprehend the trinity
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Yes, your opinion. :sleep:
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Prophet
breaking the statutes of my local municipality
Poor grammar aside, what are you offering? Yes, I do soften my statement by stating it as an opinion, but I believe this opinion is based upon reason, and would be agreed upon by most reasonable people. Scientific progress made since the times of the Bible has revealed to us that the universe is governed by physical laws making talk of walking on water laughable today. It has also revealed to us that human children are not conceived without a human father and a human mother making talk of an immaculate conception laughable today. Were to I make a claim that I had either walked on water or had been conceived asexually, I expect that I'd quickly become a laughingstock (and perhaps rightfully so?). In light of scientific progress, it is no different for claims made for individuals 2,000 years ago.
good point.
GoodbyeDave
Well-Known Member
I've just started reading his "Jesus, interrupted". The facts are not actually new to me, but his interpretations are often rubbish. So he quotes as a "contradiction" the fact that Mark says Jesus told Peter that he'd deny him "before the **** crows", while Matthew has "before the **** crows twice", Shock, horror: a missing word!
Sorry about the **** this site obviously has a dirty mind.
nazz
Doubting Thomas
There is quite a bit of divergence between the sayings in Thomas and those found in the synoptics believed to have been contained in Q. I'm not aware of any scholarly thinking that John is dependent on Q.
Jesus is God's only begotten Son in the flesh. The only reason this debate has arisen is due to the Bible saying there was a man, who took upon him the sins of the world, and provided a way for the entire human family to be redeemed.
Basic ideas involve things such as, our sins separate us from God, and unless we repent of our sins and turn away from them we can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God....
Jesus when he was on Earth, according to the Bible, claimed to be the Son of God... The Bible says that he showed this to everyone in a multitude of ways. But some still rejected him because of his teachings, hardness in their hearts, whatever the reasons they ended up killing him and allowing for the completion of what we know as the atonement.
As for him confirming that he was not God, the Bible recounts in Matthew 5:48
Jesus teaches the congregation and says in this last verse of the chapter.
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect"
He is a man on Earth, even though he was he does not claim to be perfect nor God himself, while on Earth he can feel pain and sorrow etc. A perfect being isn't subjected to these infirmities.
Jesus, though he may have lived a "perfect life" at this point never claimed himself to be perfect. His body was not perfected and glorified through the resurrection as yet.
We later read in the Book of Mormon that when he visited the people of ancient America, that he was a resurrected being at this point. (Evidence now shows that their writings depict a God that descended out of Heaven and taught the people of the Americas, who have carved his teachings into the walls of their temples, temples which were constructed in the same likeness of King Solomon's temple in the Bible)
Jesus Christ as recorded in the Book of Mormon teaches the same messages to those in the Americas but includes in the final verse, "Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in Heaven is perfect. (3Nephi 12:48)
Indicating that he, after the resurrection, had become perfect also.
God the Eternal Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are One, that is to say, one in purpose, one in heart, one in mind, one in the unity of the faith, truth and light. But, this being said, they are 3 separate entities, "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us." (D&C 130:22)
You can only image the confusion cause in the world, when a simple truth like this is taken, altered and misunderstood.
"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." (Proverbs 3:5)
Basic ideas involve things such as, our sins separate us from God, and unless we repent of our sins and turn away from them we can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God....
Jesus when he was on Earth, according to the Bible, claimed to be the Son of God... The Bible says that he showed this to everyone in a multitude of ways. But some still rejected him because of his teachings, hardness in their hearts, whatever the reasons they ended up killing him and allowing for the completion of what we know as the atonement.
As for him confirming that he was not God, the Bible recounts in Matthew 5:48
Jesus teaches the congregation and says in this last verse of the chapter.
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect"
He is a man on Earth, even though he was he does not claim to be perfect nor God himself, while on Earth he can feel pain and sorrow etc. A perfect being isn't subjected to these infirmities.
Jesus, though he may have lived a "perfect life" at this point never claimed himself to be perfect. His body was not perfected and glorified through the resurrection as yet.
We later read in the Book of Mormon that when he visited the people of ancient America, that he was a resurrected being at this point. (Evidence now shows that their writings depict a God that descended out of Heaven and taught the people of the Americas, who have carved his teachings into the walls of their temples, temples which were constructed in the same likeness of King Solomon's temple in the Bible)
Jesus Christ as recorded in the Book of Mormon teaches the same messages to those in the Americas but includes in the final verse, "Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in Heaven is perfect. (3Nephi 12:48)
Indicating that he, after the resurrection, had become perfect also.
God the Eternal Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are One, that is to say, one in purpose, one in heart, one in mind, one in the unity of the faith, truth and light. But, this being said, they are 3 separate entities, "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us." (D&C 130:22)
You can only image the confusion cause in the world, when a simple truth like this is taken, altered and misunderstood.
"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." (Proverbs 3:5)
roger1440
I do stuff
Pardon the pun but good ole Bart takes the gospels as gospel. "It appears that he was gathering more and more crowds." There may not have been "crowds". The very thing the authorities wanted to avoid would have been crowds during the Passover.Crowds can create riots. as the old saying goes, "an act of prevention is worth a pound of cure."
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
1. It doesn't actually say that in the Greek, - and the same kind of term is used with King David and others.
2. People before Jesus, in the Hebrew faith, took on the sins of the people, and at other times they were placed on animals.
3. Only in the sense that he says we all can be.
4.It does NOT say that. NO "I" there!
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
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1. You understand what I mean, none of the others you have mentioned claim to be the physical Son of God, yes we are all Children of God but not mortally.
2. Yes that was how things used to be done, now all man must do is come before God with a broken heart and a contrite spirit and truly repent in order to be forgiven. (I don't know about you but the local authorities where you live, but where I lived they would have an issue with me sacrificing an animal) Obey The laws of the Land. Personal sacrifice brings forth the blessings of Heaven.
3. That is because we all are the children of God, he is the Father of our spirits. Jesus was the first of those Spirits and the only one who would always do the will of the father. We voted him in the be the savior of the world back when God organised the plan, the entire reason we are here is to gain experience in the flesh and then be judged of our works, whether they be good, or whether they be evil. "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:7)
4. Please re-read what I said was in Matt 5:48, you just re-quoted it, doesn't matter though. The "I" part is found in the Book of Mormon verse in which the people claim to receive a visit from the resurrected Lord.
2. Yes that was how things used to be done, now all man must do is come before God with a broken heart and a contrite spirit and truly repent in order to be forgiven. (I don't know about you but the local authorities where you live, but where I lived they would have an issue with me sacrificing an animal) Obey The laws of the Land. Personal sacrifice brings forth the blessings of Heaven.
3. That is because we all are the children of God, he is the Father of our spirits. Jesus was the first of those Spirits and the only one who would always do the will of the father. We voted him in the be the savior of the world back when God organised the plan, the entire reason we are here is to gain experience in the flesh and then be judged of our works, whether they be good, or whether they be evil. "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:7)
4. Please re-read what I said was in Matt 5:48, you just re-quoted it, doesn't matter though. The "I" part is found in the Book of Mormon verse in which the people claim to receive a visit from the resurrected Lord.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva said:
1. You understand what I mean, none of the others you have mentioned claim to be the physical Son of God, yes we are all Children of God but not mortally.
ING - Nor does Jesus claim to be a "physical" son of God. Nor part of a trinity. Nor God in any sense.
2. Yes that was how things used to be done, now all man must do is come before God with a broken heart and a contrite spirit and truly repent in order to be forgiven. (I don't know about you but the local authorities where you live, but where I lived they would have an issue with me sacrificing an animal) Obey The laws of the Land. Personal sacrifice brings forth the blessings of Heaven.
ING - I was pointing out that Jesus would not be special singular event, - as other Hebrews, in the past, took on the people's sins, and were then sacrificed.
3. That is because we all are the children of God, he is the Father of our spirits. Jesus was the first of those Spirits and the only one who would always do the will of the father. We voted him in the be the savior of the world back when God organised the plan, the entire reason we are here is to gain experience in the flesh and then be judged of our works, whether they be good, or whether they be evil. "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:7)
ING - 38:7 doesn't say anything about Jesus. And why would we peons be there voting Jesus to be the savior in the future? I assume that is a Mormon teaching?
4. Please re-read what I said was in Matt 5:48, you just re-quoted it, doesn't matter though. The "I" part is found in the Book of Mormon verse in which the people claim to receive a visit from the resurrected Lord.
ING - Where did the (I) go? Also as I'm sure you know, most of Christians, and the secular world for that matter, don't count Mormon teaching as true Christian teachings. They study the ancient sources.
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe I deal with the fact that he didn't provide evidence quite well but it is your assertion that he did with which I take issue. I expect you to provide evidence (as in a quote) that he provided evidence rather than just stating things as though they were true as he did.
I haven't asserted that Ehrman's reasoning or evidence is compelling. You're making that up about me. All I'm asking of you is to explain why you don't think his reasoning or evidence is compelling. Tough question, I guess.