Science can say nothing about existence of God

[Kirran]

G-d is not part of the universe, though we see His attributes all the time working in it.
Regards

So would you say that a human can be aware of God? If so, then God would be the object of experience in this regard, which is what I mean here

 

[Ben Dhyan]

G-d is not part of the universe, though we see His attributes all the time working in it.
Regards

How do God's attributes work in the universe though you say the universe is separate from God? Somehow God's attributes need to 'touch' the universe in order to do work....how and where?

 

[paarsurrey]

How do God's attributes work in the universe though you say the universe is separate from God? Somehow God's attributes need to 'touch' the universe in order to do work....how and where?

It is a spiritual matter, here "touching" physically has no validity. Yet it is easy to understand.
It is another dimension.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

So would you say that a human can be aware of God? If so, then God would be the object of experience in this regard, which is what I mean here

Please elaborate your concept to be more clear.
Regards

 

[Ben Dhyan]

It is a spiritual matter, here "touching" physically has no validity. Yet it is easy to understand.
It is another dimension.
Regards

But there needs to be a nexus for spirit to make matter work.... for example...it is spirit that gives life to matter...if they do not interconnect...spirit can not do work...yes? Do you believe the spirit of God is omnipresent throughout His creation?

 

[Kirran]

Please elaborate your concept to be more clear.
Regards

Are you familiar with the English terms of the object and subject of experience?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Do you believe the spirit of God is omnipresent throughout His creation?

I doubt that. His God controls the universe. I think there is a throne but Qur'an does not mention whether he is sitting on it or standing near it.

 

[paarsurrey]

But there needs to be a nexus for spirit to make matter work.... for example...it is spirit that gives life to matter...if they do not interconnect...spirit can not do work...yes? Do you believe the spirit of God is omnipresent throughout His creation?

All spirits and physical things are G-d' creation. G-d is only attributive. He is present everywhere, that means he acts everywhere with his attributes. Angels are spirits, created by G-d, serving G-d to make matter work and they do things as per His commandments. Angels cannot defy G-d.
Regards

 

[Kirran]

All spirits and physical things are G-d' creation. G-d is only attributive. He is present everywhere, that means he acts everywhere with his attributes. Angels are spirits, created by G-d, serving G-d to make matter work and they do things as per His commandments. Angels cannot defy G-d.
Regards

Can a human be aware of God?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

All spirits and physical things are G-d' creation. G-d is only attributive. He is present everywhere, that means he acts everywhere with his attributes. Angels are spirits, created by G-d, serving G-d to make matter work and they do things as per His commandments. Angels cannot defy G-d.
Regards

If God is omnipresent....then there is no place where He is absent from....thus there is nothing in existence that is separate from God...

But if you claim there is anything whatsoever that is constituted of substance that is absent of God's presence...then you are saying God is not omnipresent for there are things occupying space where God is not present...

 

[paarsurrey]

I doubt that. His God controls the universe. I think there is a throne but Qur'an does not mention whether he is sitting on it or standing near it.

Throne is neither a spiritual nor a physical abode, it denotes as to how G-d's certain attributes work in absolute time and space:
[10:4] Verily, your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, then He settled Himself on the Throne; He governs everything. There is no intercessor with Him save after His permission. That is Allah, your Lord, so worship Him. Will you not, then, be admonished?
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=10&verse=0
If one is interested to know more details on the subject one could read Note # 1279 by clicking the following<Detailed English Commentary> of the verse [10:4], it is about 3/4 pages.
Regards

 

[Aupmanyav]

Angels cannot defy G-d.

Except for Iblis.

[10:4] Verily, your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, then He settled Himself on the Throne; He governs everything. There is no intercessor with Him save after His permission. That is Allah, your Lord, so worship Him. Will you not, then, be admonished?
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=10&verse=0

OK, so, normally, he is sitting, unless when he is tired of sitting. Then perhaps he gets up and takes a few steps around the throne. But, I suppose, he does not need to go/travel to any place.

 

[Darkstorn]

My theory: It could say plenty of things about the existence of gods. Namely that there is currently nothing supporting their existence...

The thing is: Most scientists are smart. Now; Science doesn't have a will: It's just an idea describing a phenomenon. But the scientists are probably smart enough not to even bother trying to say anything anymore: Nothing good really comes out of it. We have plenty of evidence for this. I haven't even read this thread but it probably counts as such...

The good news is: Since evolution is fact(theory of evolution is not evolution itself, and no, it's not a guess. In common parlance "theory" means a guess, yes. But scientific theory is NOT a guess and refers to a completely different thing) the strongest / smartest survive long enough to reproduce and the rest will die out.

So, give or take a thousand years and all the stupid people are going to kill themselves. Unless they somehow manage to kill all of us, the smart included, before that happens.

I don't think i need to elaborate who's "smart" and who's not.

But science doesn't *need* to talk about the existence of gods. The lack of need for it will be much more obvious a thousand years from now.

 

[Kirran]

My theory: It could say plenty of things about the existence of gods. Namely that there is currently nothing supporting their existence...

The thing is: Most scientists are smart. Now; Science doesn't have a will: It's just an idea describing a phenomenon. But the scientists are probably smart enough not to even bother trying to say anything anymore: Nothing good really comes out of it. We have plenty of evidence for this. I haven't even read this thread but it probably counts as such...

The good news is: Since evolution is fact(theory of evolution is not evolution itself, and no, it's not a guess. In common parlance "theory" means a guess, yes. But scientific theory is NOT a guess and refers to a completely different thing) the strongest / smartest survive long enough to reproduce and the rest will die out.

So, give or take a thousand years and all the stupid people are going to kill themselves. Unless they somehow manage to kill all of us, the smart included, before that happens.

I don't think i need to elaborate who's "smart" and who's not.

But science doesn't *need* to talk about the existence of gods. The lack of need for it will be much more obvious a thousand years from now.

This would have a slightly higher degree of validity if irreligious people tended to reproduce at a greater rate than the religious. This is not what is observed.

 

[Darkstorn]

That is true... But it's only because a larger majority is religious i would say, not that religious people themselves reproduce any faster...

 

[Kirran]

That is true... But it's only because a larger majority is religious i would say, not that religious people themselves reproduce any faster...

Well regardless of the comparative reproductive rates, in which there are many factors involved, there is no evidence to suggest that any purported genetic predisposition towards religiosity would be conferring any selective disadvantage from an evolutionary science standpoint.

 

[Darkstorn]

I agree on that, my post was mostly a joke: Except that part where i think scientists simply don't even want to bother anymore knowing its futility.

But here's the thing: I don't actually consider all religious people stupid. Far from it. From an atheist viewpoint, i would argue that people can be smart without knowing everything. And organized religion is just that; Organized religion.

This is how i think evolution will "fix" things: By removing the need for religion in peoples' minds. Religion isn't even the same thing as faith or belief; But i do believe that evolution would be predisposed to benefit those who consider all experiences and actions with logic rather than belief the most. So it's possible that even belief and faith will eventually become obsolete. I think this will happen from within religions by people who start questioning. And i do believe the process could take a thousand years. Or less. Or more.

It's much the same thing as nationalities: Eventually they will be forced to "die out" and become one or else die fighting against it... I think evolution is also predisposed to benefit those the most that would work together. And currently we don't always work together.

So i do think "religions" will die out eventually. But it's not because all the religious people will die...

This might we wishful thinking but in the end, assuming we get that far, logic trumps all: Because the universe itself is highly logical. if you understand its logic, then you essentially understand everything. An impossible thing to truly know "everything" but that'd be the closest to it: Understanding the "whys" behind things rather than their mere existence:

I can make a musical chord by understanding the makeup of the chord: It's not about remembering a letter. There is logic; It's not remembering.

I know i'm rambling.

 

[Kirran]

Well it's good to have you here contributing your view, this is what RF is about, it's enriching.

But I disagree with much of that. In no small part because I am a biologist who works in genetics and has studied evolutionary science who is thoroughly religious. What's more, I came to my religion, wasn't born into it.

As for the universe being logical, I feel this is making a number of unexamined assumptionsaabout the nature of the experienced universe and its reality distinct from the consciousness observing it. Even making some of those assumptions I suspect there are some issues, perhaps @LegionOnomaMoi would like to comment?

 

[Darkstorn]

Consider this: Everything has a logic behind it, no matter how alien it is... Because things cannot come from nothingness. Even if i were a theist, and believed in a god, the actions of said god would still have a logic behind them unless it was just randomness. But i don't think randomness exists.

And i'm talking about across many generations: Yes, you came to your religion. But by the same logic, you could come out of it. I would say, no matter how much you consider actions and thoughts to be from within you, it's always the external reality that influences you to react to things: Reactions are the only thing you've truly got. Everything you know of reality is through your senses, and you filter it through. And then react. Without the external reality, you couldn't come to a religion without knowing its existence. Religion by definition is ogranized: You must have the information within your head to consider it. Truly.

I am a buddhist. But in the end i think it's an organization and a label: The same result could be had with different organization, label and even rules. Truly. But without ever having heard the word "buddhist" or known what it is about, i wouldn't know that i'm a buddhist... I got this information from the external reality, i merely filtered it through my consciousness.

But as far as my point about the future: Considering people change, their minds change, their opinions and what not change, it is not unheard of to consider that people would... Change their minds.

The way i see it, everything is in a constant state of change, and as such your mind is also subject to it.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The good news is: Since evolution is fact(theory of evolution is not evolution itself, and no, it's not a guess. In common parlance "theory" means a guess, yes. But scientific theory is NOT a guess and refers to a completely different thing) the strongest / smartest survive long enough to reproduce and the rest will die out.
.

A proposed scientific theory is a guess ....it is the scientific method that will ultimately determine if it is correct.... and any proposed theory will only endure sp long as it has not been falsified... I'm not saying the theory of evolution is totally wrong, but there is still more to it.....