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Science cannot solve the final mystery

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Most of my theories are not relevant in this thread.
You have theories?
Theories as in the actual accepted definition, or by some idiosyncratic one that only applies to you?

If you really care to engage in debate and see the evidence I suggest you try the "Ancient Reality" thread where it is relevant. Debunking ramps and showing the inanity of the concept that the pyramids could only have been built with ramps was done years ago yet Egyptology still hasn't backed off all the way.

Haven't seen this debunking - citations/references please. All I could find was this one site from 2006 that claimed to have debunked pretty much all explanations, but offered very little and was advocating some kind of rope system (the site was set up by the guy with the rope theory...i.e., a vanity site). And I found several fairly recent finds that supported the ramp 'theory' (one example - https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/giza-pyramids-ramp-scli-intl/index.html ) See how easy it is to actually, you know, support a claim?
debunkment
That is a cool word - is it ancient Egyptian?

The nature of our language and how it relates to science and metaphysics is, I believe, relevant here. Humans have always been language because we use it not only to accumulate knowledge over the generations but also to think. We are constrained by our nature but we can't see that our nature is built on language. By the same token language imparts assumptions about reality which defines how we think and construct models. Babies are taught to see reality and this is largely through language as they get older. Every question then is about ourselves, and from the perspective of those who think like us some things are simply as invisible as a sheet of paper on edge to a one eyed man.

Whatever - hey, you claimed at one point that autism is a language issue. That seems really silly.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
It would seem so.

I used to talk to another person on a different forum and this person would continually talk about something referred to as SCPID theory in intelligent design. S=Systems, C=Cycles, P=Patterns and ID was intelligent design. This person would discuss it like there were volumes of material written on the subject and it was some view held by a large number of proponents. I searched using that term and variations of it and they all lead back to the same poster. I just finished another quick check with Google and found some postings on a blog from 2013, but reading through those, I am certain it is the same poster I talked to on the other forum. It would not surprise me that similar searches would reveal that cladking is the primary and perhaps only source of his claims on the web as well.
Didn't claddy mention 2006?

No more ramps - theories of pyramid ramp systems disproved - the 7 major drawbacks and problems of all ramp modells

'Copyright 2006:'
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
No. You are ignoring the fact that I said none of the Ancient Language is understood. It can't be translated so when we attempt to do it we get gobbledty gook that isn't understood. /quote]
Yet you wrote in the thread 'Fascinating' that you had seen all the translations.

Crazy?
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
What is this voodooo you employed to usurp the superiority of the intellect of the great woo-king?
No voodoo. I just clipped him with the microscope in the science lab. Ms Scarlett saw me do it. He didn't have a clue.

I need to get a ruling before posting the joke I was going to. It was funny, but boundary testing too.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I see some people are going to be stubborn until.....
God slaps them up side the head

or they end up in the box in the ground

eternal darkness is real

need proof?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
There are a couple huge errors here.

First off is that despite the fact I've been giving them a hard time about not doing in real science and not doing the infrared testing, I'm quite sure they didn't finally do it 4 years ago to test my theory. Dr Zahi Hawass referred to my theory as "other unscientific theories on the net" in 2009 and would most assuredly not take any part of it seriously. I'd guess he only read parts of it because of my interpretations of the Pyramid Texts and finds the bulk of it laughable at best. No doubt he is aware of the ramp debunkment as well since there has been comment related to several parts of it. Some of this has gotten attention from those working at Giza and elsewhere but I seriously doubt that any Egyptologist takes any of this seriously, or at least that they took it seriously in 2015 when they finally did the infrared imaging.

I called for this imaging because I knew the results would exclude "every" other hypothesis about construction and it would support mine. There are several reasons they did it but chief among them is it was free, paid for in artefacts, and they were sure it would disprove the internal ramp theory (which it did). It had very little to do with me other than I was focusing a spotlight on them. Even this may have been insignificant.

More importantly though is that this is all the action of one man so there is no conspiracy. Hawass is in charge of this and he isn't releasing the data because it doesn't conform to Egyptological belief. Of course it can never conform to beliefs because it is Egyptological peers who determine reality and the data are withheld from them as well.

There is no definition of "conspiracy" which makes this term a referent for anything I believe.

Yes, it's true that there are thousands of Egyptological peers who are not crying bloody murder in unison as they should be. But I doubt these guys are meeting behind closed doors and agreeing to work in the dark until such time as Dr Hawass deigns to release the data. Rather the far simpler explanation is that they simply don't care. The list of things that people and Egyptologists don't care about is quite long and, believe it or not, very few Egyptologists care anything at all about the nature or means of construction of G1. They simply already know EVERYTHING THEY NEED TO KNOW (it is a tomb dragged up ramps by changeless and stinky footed bumpkins). Rather than systematically running tests for the last century they simply assumed "they mustta used ramps" and went from there. This is what humans do; we don't test assumptions. Even when we accidentally get data that don't conform to our assumptions we don't notice and this goes ten times over BECAUSE EGYPTOLOGISTS DON'T CARE HOW THE PYRAMIDS WERE BUILT.

Even after I point all this out to people there is no uprising and there are no phone calls back and forth to coordinate not caring. They simply don't care because they assume;

1.,= science has self correcting mechanisms that will always steer it in the right direction.
2.,= science is being led with the latest technology and best intentions.
3.,= people are smart and the smartest are Egyptologists.
4.,= all of our beliefs fit a single pattern based in experiment so every pronouncement made by science is correct.
5.,= we understand the ancient writing and it speaks of superstition written by the moribund.

Since each person believes this there is simply no need to believe in conspiracies. The fact is that it's all wrong. The reality is that nobody really likes change and "peer review" has come to be an enshrinement of the status quo. Now even peers aren't allowed access to information that might crumble a perfectly crafted status quo. This is simply the reality that has evolved but it required no two individuals to bring it about. It is highly improbable that any kind of conspiracy could have created the 21st century mess we call "science" even through intention and the cooperation of millions. The real world doesn't work this way. In the real world when ideas arise that challenge the status quo they are attacked, called "woo" and "conspiratorial". The originator is ridiculed, excommunicated, and ignored. So far everything is right on schedule.

The one thing different this time is that data are being withheld from peers. But, one more time, I don't believe this is a conspiracy, per se. It is merely a fact that they used century old technology in 2015 and still have not released results.

I'm "sure" I know what the results of the testing are and posted it a few times. There will be some details I can't predict at this time but if they withhold it long enough I might. Odds are good it is being withheld largely because all this data is in very close agreement with my theories and shows other theories are wrong. It is the final nail in the coffin for ramps.

The failure of Dr. Hawass to release any data he has to support his claims is problematic and without reasonable excuses.

In bold is inaccurate going back to at least the 1960's in an extensive research project by an engineer ifeature in American Science that I know of personally, Many have devoted considerable research on how the pyramids were built. This research included archaeologists, egyptologists, and engineers. They research the origin of the stone, how they were moved, and how the pyramids were constructed. I may post sources on this research.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I see some people are going to be stubborn until.....
God slaps them up side the head

or they end up in the box in the ground

eternal darkness is real

need proof?

Subjective anecdotal,assumptions based on beliefs and faith do not solve the final mystery.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
I see some people are going to be stubborn until.....
God slaps them up side the head

or they end up in the box in the ground

eternal darkness is real

need proof?

What is the final mystery?
-will mankind eventually die off?
-how long will earth be habitable?
-will the universe eventually collapse?
-if so, when?
-will humans eventually evolve into another species?
-if so, what will it look like?
-depending on what you consider final, there could be millions of final mystery's.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
The failure of Dr. Hawass to release any data he has to support his claims is problematic and without reasonable excuses.

In bold is inaccurate going back to at least the 1960's in an extensive research project by an engineer ifeature in American Science that I know of personally, Many have devoted considerable research on how the pyramids were built. This research included archaeologists, egyptologists, and engineers. They research the origin of the stone, how they were moved, and how the pyramids were constructed. I may post sources on this research.

On the whole Egyptologists don't care one whit how the pyramids were built.

Of course there are only individuals and this doesn't apply to every single individual .

Early egyptologists simply didn't believe Egyptians were smart enough to use any means but ramps so their ancestors mustta been even less smart. They also figured that ancient Egyptians mustta had powerful motivation so they came up with the king is a god nonsense.

There are lots of people very interested in how the pyramids were built and this includes some Egyptologists. But everybody still can't see what he can't believe or doesn't expect. It's very difficult to expect to see linear funiculars in a desert being used by highly superstitious and ignorant people. Most people find all these concepts as incredible as the concept that Peers can be wrong. They can't imagine how primitive people could become knowledgeable about all these subjects or how our scientist priests could miss it. They can't imagine living in a world where humans aren't even intelligent and are the odd man out because we speak a different language and dance to a different tune.

But everything is there right before our eyes. Instead of observing we've (collectively) gotten in the habit of looking and seeing.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
The failure of Dr. Hawass to release any data he has to support his claims is problematic and without reasonable excuses.

You said a mouthful there.

Your much kinder than I am though. I consider the refusal to gather and release data (even to Peers) to be inhuman, evil, and irrational.

I wouldn't be surprised if the reasons are largely religious and political but but there is no excuse and there is no excuse for people to give him a pass on it.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Haven't seen this debunking - citations/references please.







There's a great deal of illogic in the interpretation of the data and in our estimation of the ancients. These non-sequiturs are inconsistent with nature and the physical evidence.



I'm not sure which question you consider inadequately addressed. There is a huge amount of data that supports my theory and I often say it ALL does but, of course, this isn't strictly true because what the king had for breakfast is normally irrelevant to how the pyramid was built. But my theory is certainly able to include far more of the physical evidence than orthodoxy which can't even fond the word ramp anywhere.



Historical accounts say that the stones moved to the pyramid 300' at a time after a priest attached a piece of paper to them. This is inconsistent with ramps. Indeed, there are no historical accounts until more recent times that involve ramps. Herodotus' description almost precisely matches the usage of counterweights. (they were shaped like the dorsal carapace of a grasshopper and composed of "short pieces of wood".) They were built in "battlements" (steps) and the lifting devices could be moved between them. The evidence they were built in steps is pervasive in the physical evidence and historical accounts. The builders referred to “battlements” in the Pyramid Texts and historical accounts say they were built in “mounds”. Herodotus says machines were moved from one step to another.



The culture has no word for "ramps" as applied to lifting objects. There is no such record for the use of this term. While they, no doubt, physically used ramps to lift objects the lack of the word is glaring omission. There is no "god of ramps" and not a single drawing of a ramp from the great pyramid building age. The word "ramp" simply isn't even attested until centuries after the great pyramids were all built.



Far more importantly is there is no overseer of ramp builders, ramp architects, or ramp dismantlers buried anywhere in Egypt. There are no overseers of basket makers, no overseers of harness makers or salve makers. There is not even a single stone dragger or his overseer in evidence. The pyramid town had equal numbers of men and women and was a tiny fraction of the size that would be required to drag stones and build ramps. The town is hardly large enough to supply such a large army with water and supplies far less do all the work themselves. It is little larger than a couple soccer fields. Indeed the builders' town was a mere 600' by 900'. By today's standards this would accommodate only about 1000 people in an office building. People need far more space where they live. Only about 40% of the population was men so there wouldn't even be nearly enough labor to supply food and water to the thousands necessary to build ramps and drag stones up them. You say ancient people didn't mind being cramped up. Modern sanitation and processes are more efficient than they were in 2750 BC but let's say they were willing to be jammed in cheek to jewel. This only increases occupancy to about 3500 men which is still grossly insufficient. With so many people in close contact disease would spread like wildfire. Since there were storage and production facilities in the town as well it's highly improbable that there were numbers even approaching these levels.



Logic says that on a gargantuan project that a highly efficient means must be used. Ramps not only are hugely inefficient due to the high friction and high cost of building and dismantling ramps but also because the weight of the team dragging stones to the pyramid top is simply wasted as they walk back down on already constricted and overused ramps. Getting the manpower necessary to build this requires massive ramps because 55 HP being done by men at extraordinarily low efficiency requires vast numbers of men. They couldn't even see the pyramid to build it under the amount of ramping that would be needed to project so much power. Logic says it would be far easier to just drag stones up the side from the top. Friction is reduced to almost nothing since the route of the stones can be greased. The men don't have to lift their own weight and can pull much more effectively from a level surface. The concept that they must have used ramps is absurd when there are numerous better evidenced and easier means.



Maintaining this level of efficient power with muscles alone would require massive ramps and a means for the workers to get back down. Then there is the impossibility of cladding the structure with any possibly evidenced ramping system. Anything that required cladding stones as they went would leave nothing for ramps to adhere to and any other means would require the ramps to be rebuilt to apply the cladding.

Then comes the physical evidence which just puts a nail into the heart of the ramp ideas. Perhaps most glaringly is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever for ramps on the pyramid. This wouldn’t be such a glaring void if not for the existence of numerous vertical lines visible in the pyramids. These lines tend to appear in pairs with one on opposite sides. This is consistent with counterweight operations where one line marks the counterweight and the opposite the route of the stones. It is most highly inconsistent with any ramping ideas. Simply stated ramps wouldn’t leave such lines no matter how they were configured except for ones that can be ruled out by logic such as integral ramps. The grooves on the Great Pyramid are also these routes of the stones that the builders called the “ladders of the Gods”.













Simply stated you can see the routes of the stones right up the middles and in two places above the boat museum. You can also see that these pyramids are five step (battlement) pyramids on some pictures but especially in the gravimetric scan half way down the page here;



H. D. Bui



I have a truly beautiful depiction of these five steps drawn on the scan but can't get permission to use it. But this is still conclusive proof that it's a five step pyramid which is more than adequate to debunk ramps. They would not have used steps unless it was necessary and the only reason steps might be necessary is that they could lift the stones only 81' 3" at a time.



Each of the great pyramids were five step pyramids. There is simply no reason to build these as step pyramids unless the height of each step defined the height they were able to lift stones. In order to lift stones to the top they must have needed to be relayed the greatest distance they could lift. Of course this could be as simple as the length of the ropes by which they lifted them up the side. No matter the actual reason it simply isn’t consistent with ramps. It is highly consistent with counterweights and using water for ballast since the geyser sprayed 80’ and this is the height of the steps. It might be consistent with locks that lifted 81' 3" at a time or any water or ballast lifting system limited by natural laws or infrastructure/ materiel concerns. It is not consistent with ramps.



Ramps can’t explain the various infrastructure all around and within the pyramid. They are inconsistent with the history, culture, logic, physical evidence, and the evidence left by the actual on-site builders. Ramps are not consistent with the fact that the great pyramids get progressively larger. Each of the great pyramid grows substantially with G1 having required 45 times as much lifting as Djoser’s Pyramid (the first great pyramid). There is no property of ramps that can be tweaked and improved upon until their efficiency increases 45 fold. To state it another way; it is apparent that whatever means used could be improved upon and this is not consistent with ramps.



Perhaps the greatest inconsistency is the cultural evidence right on site. In the pyramid builders cemetery is the “Overseer of the Boats of Neith”. This would be the loader on the south side in all probability but it could have nothing to do with ramps. There are canal overseers, overseers of metal shops, director of draftsmen, inspector of craftsmen, controller of a boat crew, controller of the side of the pyramid, inspector of metal workers and a host of other jobs that reflect a sophisticated and intelligent culture. Most tellingly is that there is a “Weigher/ Reckoner”. This job would be critical on a device that was said to be sensitive enough to tell the difference in weight of a “heavy heart” from a feather. They found a standard weight in the queens “air siphon” and a hook.



In point of fact there simply isn’t anything consistent with ramps. While the evidence isn’t deep it is very broad that stones were lifted from above making the vertical lines on the great pyramids and are simply sufficient to say ramps are debunked.

While ramps are debunked what we do have is evidence that water was used everywhere. The great pyramid are built right on top of water collection devices and surrounded by a cofferdam. There's one pretty obvious lock lying along the route which the western cliff face counterweight appears to have dragged stones. There is water erosion in canals leading away from the pyramid base.

We need to do the science to determine the exact means by which the water was used to build.



Of course you can reinterpret every single point in this and claim that ramps were used but people not beholden to orthodoxy seem to consider this case virtually air tight. There simply is no evidence that ramps were used to lift stones on the great pyramids which is concurrent wirth the era in which they were built. They did not use ramps and the belief that ramps are the only thing they could have used is not evidence and it is insulting to the builders and to those who use logic.
 
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cladking

Well-Known Member
Surely in none of your meandering rants on here - WHERE have you done this???

There are many dozens of threads where I've clearly shown the pyramid is NOT A TOMB. Here is one where I show what the pyramid actually is in the builders' own words;

The King as Pyramid - Graham Hancock Official Website

The builders said over and over and over that the pyramid is not a tomb and the king's tomb was in the sky. Egyptologists simply dismiss all this as nonsense, metaphor, and symbolism. The builders never once said or implied that any king was entombed in any great pyramid. This is all in the minds of modern people. Even Herodotus said repeatedly that the pyramid was not a tomb and Khufu was buried elsewhere.

There is no evidence to support the beliefs that moribund and changeless stinky footed bumpkins dragged tombs up ramps.

Nobody seems to have a problem with the mystery of why we see what we expect to see.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Can you show a 'truth' about the natural world that was derived via religion?

Modern science was largely an outgrowth of religious writing and thought.

Science and religion have never been polar opposites and never will be. Religious people must use reason to function and scientific people are just as superstitious as anyone else.
 
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