Science confirms validity of intercessory prayer

[ChristineM]

I use DuckDuckGo

That explains much

 

[ChristineM]

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if knowledge that there were people pulling for you affected one's ability to cope with illness/breakdown.

I've been watching the series "Alone" from the History Channel - it's a reality show where participants are dropped off, individually alone, in a fairly inhospitable territory and then they see who can survive the longest - sourcing food and water, and building shelter and fire. Anyway, in the latest season I watched, there was a 61 year old participant who, "tapped out" (the term the show uses for deciding to leave/quit/stop) after over 70 days, and while he complained of feeling his body giving out in various ways through the last days, it wasn't until the extraction crew was RIGHT THERE, in front of him that he nearly collapsed. I believe his mental state - knowledge of having to cope on his own, not wanting to let down anyone counting on him, etc. was keeping him going, and warding off worse symptoms. As soon as he knew he didn't need to go on like that, his body caved to the fatigue.

It's the same sort of thing when you are out somewhere and have to urinate. You feel it building up, but you are able to quell it, because you know you can't go yet. When you get into the bathroom however, it's over... you can barely contain yourself and your mental-state/body just "knows" it's time. You don't have to hold it anymore, and so it feels exactly like you couldn't have held it another second, even though you probably could have, given a supporting mental state.

But obviously... none of this means "God" is involved. That's just silly.

 

[tas8831]

Actually

Science has found no actual effect of intercessory prayer on recovery.

Intercessory prayer for the alleviation of ill health. - PubMed - NCBI

OBJECTIVES:
To review the effects of intercessory prayer as an additional intervention for people with health problems already receiving routine health care.

SEARCH STRATEGY:
We systematically searched ten relevant databases including MEDLINE and EMBASE (June 2007).

SELECTION CRITERIA:
We included any randomised trial comparing personal, focused, committed and organised intercessory prayer with those interceding holding some belief that they are praying to God or a god versus any other intervention. This prayer could be offered on behalf of anyone with health problems.

DATA COLLECTION AND ANALYSIS:
We extracted data independently and analysed it on an intention to treat basis, where possible. We calculated, for binary data, the fixed-effect relative risk (RR), their 95% confidence intervals (CI), and the number needed to treat or harm (NNT or NNH).

MAIN RESULTS:
Ten studies are included in this updated review (7646 patients). For the comparison of intercessory prayer plus standard care versus standard care alone, overall there was no clear effect of intercessory prayer on death, with the effect not reaching statistical significance and data being heterogeneous (6 RCTs, n=6784, random-effects RR 0.77 CI 0.51 to 1.16, I(2) 83%). For general clinical state there was also no significant difference between groups (5 RCTs, n=2705, RR intermediate or bad outcome 0.98 CI 0.86 to 1.11). Four studies found no effect for re-admission to Coronary Care Unit (4 RCTs, n=2644, RR 1.00 CI 0.77 to 1.30).Two other trials found intercessory prayer had no effect on re-hospitalisation (2 RCTs, n=1155, RR 0.93 CI 0.71 to 1.22).

AUTHORS' CONCLUSIONS:
These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory prayer,the majority do not and the evidence does not support a recommendation either in favour or against the use of intercessory prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care.

One has to wonder if Strobel has this paper listed in his bibliography...

 

[The Reverend Bob]

View attachment 30103

And it is usually the ones offering prayers who are filling those warehouses with supplies

 

[atanu]

This crap can go on forever and no one is ever going to convince the other side that there is no there there. The subject of prayer is out of the purview and magistratum of science.

Yes. I agree.

There are Hindu gurus, in whose presence troubled minds are known to subside. Nothing measurable can be found as to what guru actually does. Guru says that he just keeps his mind in Self and many rampaging minds start to resonate with that peace.

 

[charlie sc]

Yes. I agree.

There are Hindu gurus, in whose presence troubled minds are known to subside. Nothing measurable can be found as to what guru actually does. Guru says that he just keeps his mind in Self and many rampaging minds start to resonate with that peace.

Placebo effect?

 

[dybmh]

It's quite funny this has turned into a joke thread. It's also quite sad

I think that's inevitable when the OP cites a source which none of us can read for ourselves.

inB4: Yes, I am aware we could go buy the book ourselves, or review all the other studies on the matter via GoogleScholar; but in order to discuss the OP we need to read the book cited. Without doing that, the OP is a joke.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Still there are hundreds of these studies and they are not coming to the same conclusion and they are supposed to be peer-reviewed. Just look through that pile, some positive, some neutral, some negative. The whole issue is inconclusive and there is no way of proving it one way or the other. This crap can go on forever and no one is ever going to convince the other side that there is no there there. The subject of prayer is out of the purview and magistratum of science.

Then the results are inconclusive, pending further study.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Then the results are inconclusive, pending further study.

Given the thousand pages of material out there, is that really necessary?

From Are there demonstrable effects of distant intercessory prayer? A meta-analytic review. - PubMed - NCBI :

CONCLUSIONS:
There is no scientifically discernable effect for IP as assessed in controlled studies. Given that the IP literature lacks a theoretical or theological base and has failed to produce significant findings in controlled trials, we recommend that further resources not be allocated to this line of research.

You can also read: https://studysites.sagepub.com/vaughnstudy/articles/intervention/Hodge.pdf

 

[SkepticThinker]

The very idea of scientist thinking that prayer is under the purview of science is what is childish, it is complete utter rubbish to believe that somehow we can prove or disprove prayer by putting it under a microscope. It is bull**** to believe you can. Prayer is not a subject for science to investigate

If it supposedly produces results in the natural world, then yes, it is a subject for science to investigate.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Given the thousand pages of material out there, is that really necessary?

From Are there demonstrable effects of distant intercessory prayer? A meta-analytic review. - PubMed - NCBI :

CONCLUSIONS:
There is no scientifically discernable effect for IP as assessed in controlled studies. Given that the IP literature lacks a theoretical or theological base and has failed to produce significant findings in controlled trials, we recommend that further resources not be allocated to this line of research.

You can also read: https://studysites.sagepub.com/vaughnstudy/articles/intervention/Hodge.pdf

Okay, then prayer doesn't work, I guess.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Okay, then prayer doesn't work, I guess.

There is no conclusive evidence if it does or doesn't

 

[ChristineM]

And it is usually the ones offering prayers who are filling those warehouses with supplies

That is bull, statistically, non believers donate more to charities than believers. And take away the money given to churches as charitable donations and than difference becomes quite significant.

 

[SkepticThinker]

There is no conclusive evidence if it does or doesn't

Which is what I said, but you didn't seem to like that.

If all studies point to, "There is no scientifically discernable effect for IP as assessed in controlled studies," then at some point it may have to be concluded that prayer doesn't produce desired results.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

That is bull, statistically, non believers donate more to charities than believers. And take away the money given to churches as charitable donations and than difference becomes quite significant.

I was waiting for this.

Religious people more likely to give to charity, study shows
New report finds religious people are more likely to donate | Philanthropy Daily
https://www.philanthropy.com/article/Religious-Americans-Give-More/153973
Religion drives charitable giving in America
HuffPost is now part of Oath
Does Religion Influence Philanthropy?
Religion 'makes people more generous'

And of course you can come up with articles stating that this isn't true and that non-believers give more. I know how this stupid never ending game works. So go ahead cite your articles, studies and polls saying different and let the games begin.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Which is what I said, but you didn't seem to like that.

If all studies point to, "There is no scientifically discernable effect for IP as assessed in controlled studies," then at some point it may have to be concluded that prayer doesn't produce desired results.

No scientifically discernable(sic) effect. Why? Because prayer isn't under the purview of science.

 

[SkepticThinker]

No scientifically discernable(sic) effect. Why? Because prayer isn't under the purview of science.

It seems like you're sticking with that, not actually based on the results of these studies (given that they don't look good for the side of prayer), but just based on your desire for prayer to work.
That's how it seems to me.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

It seems like you're sticking with that, not actually based on the results of these studies (given that they don't look good for the side of prayer), but just based on your desire for prayer to work.
That's how it seems to me.

Read the second study I cited

 

[ChristineM]

I was waiting for this.

Religious people more likely to give to charity, study shows
New report finds religious people are more likely to donate | Philanthropy Daily
https://www.philanthropy.com/article/Religious-Americans-Give-More/153973
Religion drives charitable giving in America
HuffPost is now part of Oath
Does Religion Influence Philanthropy?
Religion 'makes people more generous'

And of course you can come up with articles stating that this isn't true and that non-believers give more. I know how this stupid never ending game works. So go ahead cite your articles, studies and polls saying different and let the games begin.

America accounts for just 5% of the world population. Hell the population of europe alone is twice that of america. Here is a british report.

Muslims and Christians less generous than atheists, study finds

And of course your links do not show donations that are not to church funds which do not go to genuine charities. Or those to televangelists who expect a certain lifestyle.

You could also try
https://ieet.org/index.php/IEET2/more/pellissier20111125


Not to mention the fact that donations by religious donations are declining
Religious Giving Down, Other Charity Holding Steady
It also states there is little change in americas overall charitable activity. From that i summise that the 3% if americans who are atheist and the 15% who are not christian are are making up the shortfall.

And i will conclude with a damning report on american donating practices.
Are Religious People Really More Generous Than Atheists? A New Study Puts That Myth to Rest

So would you care to replay that list with the confirmation bias taken out.

P.s. your first link redirects too many times and bottles out, a sure sign of a spammy site.