Science confirms validity of intercessory prayer

[The Reverend Bob]

You tend to go to far. Why do you think that there is "no value"? Once again, the failure of prayer to have a positive effect voids the claim of positive results.

Once again, if read the second study you would see that the whole endeavor was bull****. What do we do with these studies? Some say yes and some say no? Junk science of no value. Junk science. Move on to finding an actual cure to cancer rather than studying if acupuncture or prayer has any effect on the common cold. It was all a bunch of garbage whether pro or con.

 

[atanu]

Yes. Many trials will give the control condition a placebo or have a placebo condition. However, this is not possible for all experiments. The placebo effect is when nothing is really happening or given but the person feels good or things something is happening. This effect is so powerful that is shows all the time. Drug trials need to test for this.
So, when you talk about Gurus and how others are effected(?), then it's explainable by the placebo effect.

"Placebos often work because people don't know they are getting one. But what happens if you know you are getting a placebo?

A 2014 study led by Kaptchuk and published in Science Translational Medicine explored this by testing how people reacted to migraine pain medication. One group took a migraine drug labeled with the drug's name, another took a placebo labeled "placebo," and a third group took nothing. The researchers discovered that the placebo was 50% as effective as the real drug to reduce pain after a migraine attack.

The researchers speculated that a driving force beyond this reaction was the simple act of taking a pill. "People associate the ritual of taking medicine as a positive healing effect," says Kaptchuk. "Even if they know it's not medicine, the action itself can stimulate the brain into thinking the body is being healed." The power of the placebo effect - Harvard Health

So, what is the mechanism by which a guru applies placebo on devotees? You accept that placebo is real. So, how do you explain that from materialistic position?

 

[SkepticThinker]

The studies state that the studies about the subject are inconclusive therefore hold no value. There are studies that say IP does work and then there are those that say it doesn't. Both studies whether pro or con hold no value. So what did one study on the studies suggest: move on because the subject is inherently inclusive and therefore not worthy of any further study or resources.

The study didn't say that though.

 

[dybmh]

So, what is the mechanism by which a guru applies placebo on devotees? You accept that placebo is real. So, how do you explain that from materialistic position?

I might be able to help with this.

The placebo is the presence or the concept of the Guru. The mechanism for effect **might be** power of suggestion mixed with the desire to please and the desire to confirm their own beliefs. @Left Coast provided an interesting article that spoke about it.. I can look it up if you wish. The article didn't specifically speak about Gurus. The article was speaking about psychics, but the mechanism **might be** the same. The devotee wants the Guru to have a super-normal ability. Additionally the devotee knows that the Guru will be pleased with them if they recognize the effect. And the devotee wants confirmation for their beliefs.

 

[charlie sc]

So, what is the mechanism by which a guru applies placebo on devotees? You accept that placebo is real. So, how do you explain that from materialistic position?

Look it up if you want to and consider the affects. I already showed you it’s a real phenomenon in science. I have no interest in baby feeding you every piece of information and other people’s ignorance or incompetence only goes so far with me.

 

[atanu]

Look it up if you want to and consider the affects. I already showed you it’s a real phenomenon in science. I have no interest in baby feeding you every piece of information and other people’s ignorance or incompetence only goes so far with me.

I am asking you the scientific explanation of the mechanism. It is mature talk. Not baby feeding.

 

[atanu]

I might be able to help with this.

The placebo is the presence or the concept of the Guru. The mechanism for effect **might be** power of suggestion mixed with the desire to please and the desire to confirm their own beliefs. @Left Coast provided an interesting article that spoke about it.. I can look it up if you wish. The article didn't specifically speak about Gurus. The article was speaking about psychics, but the mechanism **might be** the same. The devotee wants the Guru to have a super-normal ability. Additionally the devotee knows that the Guru will be pleased with them if they recognize the effect. And the devotee wants confirmation for their beliefs.

I do know a little bit about it. But my question was to bring to front the fact that ‘placebo’ efffect cannot be supported from the premise of mechanical-material origin of consciousness-intelligence.

The guru, I was referring to was Shri Ramana Maharshi. He himself used to say that it was the faith of the devotees that made all magical things happen. Yet, the fact is that not all people can command such faith.

A meditating man can effortlessly spread peace.

 

[charlie sc]

You accept that placebo is real.

I am baby feeding. It's so substantiated in science that it's the norm to do in drug trials and there are many experiments with it. Even after linking that site and explaining it, you say, "You accept that placebo is real." As if I'm making it up or it's some strange phenomenon that pops up every now and then. If you really want to do research on it, be my guest. Though, I have no interest in explaining the obvious to you. Maybe I'll make a whole post to everyone so that I can spoon feed a bunch of people rather than just you. Yeah, that sounds more fun.

 

[dybmh]

But my question was to bring to front the fact that ‘placebo’ efffect cannot be supported from the premise of mechanical-material origin of consciousness-intelligence.

Hmmm. maybe it can be supported. more data is needed. The problem is replicating the results and determining a "recipe" that works.

 

[atanu]

I am baby feeding. It's so substantiated in science that it's the norm to do in drug trials and there are many experiments with it. Even after linking that site and explaining it, you say, "You accept that placebo is real." As if I'm making it up or it's some strange phenomenon that pops up every now and then. If you really want to do research on it, be my guest. Though, I have no interest in explaining the obvious to you. Maybe I'll make a whole post to everyone so that I can spoon feed a bunch of people rather than just you. Yeah, that sounds more fun.

Most of us know all of what you say. I am asking for the mechanism.

If consciousness-awareness is epiphenomenon of neurones firing in brain, then how this epiphenomenon influences brain states ?

 

[12jtartar]

From the book, "The Case for Miracles," by Lee Strobel.

Dr. Candy Gunther Brown, who earned her doctorate degree at Harvard University, is a professor of religious studies at Indiana University. She has a neutral outlook on religion, having said, “I do not assume the existence or nonexistence of a deity or other suprahuman forces.”

Brown cites two scientific, peer-reviewed studies that confirmed the efficacy of prayer on patients. She noted, “One of the first publicized studies was by Dr. Randolph Byrd, published in 1988, in the peer-reviewed Southern Medical Journal. It was a prospective, randomized, double-blinded, controlled study of four hundred subjects.” The results: “Patients in the prayer group had less congestive heart failure, fewer cardiac arrests, fewer episodes of pneumonia, were less often intubated and ventilated, and needed less diuretic and antibiotic therapy.” The editor of the Journal noted that the study had been peer-reviewed and was judged to be a properly designed and executed scientific investigation.

THEN, a decade or so later, a REPLICATION STUDY by Dr. William S. Harris and colleagues was published in the “Archives of Internal medicine.” Dr. Brown noted of this study, “This was a ‘gold standard’ study of the effects of intercessory prayer on almost a thousand consecutively admitted coronary patients. Half received prayer, the other half didn’t. And again, the group that received prayer had better outcomes than the control group. These studies affirmed that the recipients of prayer had better outcomes than those who didn’t receive prayer.” - "The Case for Miracles," by Lee Strobel, pages 123-128

Discussion -

Spartan,
I believe in prayer also, but I can see where your study of people could be putting forward an answer not proven.
When a person believes in something very strongly, the makeup of the person can overcome problems, even diseases. Sometimes it takes only a very little help for a person’s body to overcome a disease, because the bodies natural defenses are trying to heal a person.
The reason a person gets well better than someone without prayer, is the believer, believes he is going to get well.
I suspect that you could get similar occurrences, if the person prays for another person. The reason?? Because he believes that if he prays for another person, it will help. The help will also help the person who prays as well as the person prayed for.
Today, God does not actually HEAL, but He will help you to find the best way to be healed, at that time, if we pray to Him.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Spartan,
I believe in prayer also, but I can see where your study of people could be putting forward an answer not proven.
When a person believes in something very strongly, the makeup of the person can overcome problems, even diseases. Sometimes it takes only a very little help for a person’s body to overcome a disease, because the bodies natural defenses are trying to heal a person.
The reason a person gets well better than someone without prayer, is the believer, believes he is going to get well.
I suspect that you could get similar occurrences, if the person prays for another person. The reason?? Because he believes that if he prays for another person, it will help. The help will also help the person who prays as well as the person prayed for.
Today, God does not actually HEAL, but He will help you to find the best way to be healed, at that time, if we pray to Him.

The topic of the thread is intercessory prayer, or praying for someone else. Studies cannot find any improvement from such an action.