prometheus11
Well-Known Member
I don't understand what you're saying.
What are you suggesting about "serving" "masters?"
Are you saying that religion actually does something measurable?
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Science is important... and even holy.
- Thread starter Agathion
- Start date
I don't understand what you're saying.
What are you suggesting about "serving" "masters?"
Are you saying that religion actually does something measurable?
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Why am I not surprised...which are you most interested in...spirit or matter....immortal or mortal...heaven or earth....let's say you want to learn about both....it will turn out sooner or later as you gain knowledge and experience that one of these is a subjective understanding and the other is objective...and you will have a leaning to one more than the other.. So it is best to make up your mind sooner rather than later because to excel in either require 100% commitment to one or the other...and life is for a short time...
Nothing measurable yet wrt physical science ....
prometheus11
Well-Known Member
I'm saying that I'm interested in what produces reliable measurements. When there's only vague generalities, they don't work MRI machines or vaccinate against diseases. Do you understand that simple difference. You're selling hope. Which is fine. But it's philosophy. Not TRUTH.
cambridge79
Active Member
Except that on his very first appearance in the bible man gets punished by god for eating from the three of knowledge....
Er, truth is a philosophical subject. Facts and truth aren't the same thing.
prometheus11
Well-Known Member
Quite. Facts are rather boring compared with philosophical truths.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Haha....I'm selling hope???.....where on earth did you get that idea from? If you want to understand more of the physical world...that's your choice and I wish you the best...
prometheus11
Well-Known Member
Isn't that what belief in spirit gets the believer? Hope? For a better life and for a life after this one.
What does belief in spirit achieve?
Your last line implies that people must make a choice between understanding the physical world and understanding the spiritual world. Is the situation dichotomous?
Is there something wrong with wanting to understand more of the physical world?
Sounds pretty satanic to me, just not in a bad, Christian way!
Shad
Veteran Member
I do not agree with the idea that science is holy. This pushes science from the realm of a human tool to something more and beyond us. This gives rise to scientism with a dose of authority one could associate with "beyond human" in which the tool which is science becomes doctrine and dogma based. Holy also could provide a grounding to treat science as unquestionable based on the previous principles.
The conflict between religion and science is a conflict within the individual. Both explain reality but using different methods. When a conflict subject covered by both is evaluated the individual is the one that chooses which set of tools to follow for various reasons. This reflects how the individual thinks be it as an empiricist or rationalist with a varying mix of conclusions which produce spirituality, determinism, etc. An individual could accept either answer or create a new answer by mixing the conclusions of both.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
No...forget the imagination....that which the human eye has never seen, the human ear has never heard, and the human mind has never imagined....that is what awaits those who love God... It is not a belief...it is the evolution of a spiritual existence beyond the mortal mind's ability to understand....
And no..belief in spirit does not do anything because there is duality....functioning spiritually is another thing altogether because there is no duality...
And no...there is nothing wrong wanting to understand the physical world....
Mohammad Nur Syamsu
Well-Known Member
...of good and evil.
It means one cannot make good and evil into a matter of (scientific) fact. And when the late medieval monks distinguished fact from opinion, that was the start of the scientific revolution. When it was understood that fact and opinion where distinct domains, creationism, it meant that people were free to gather facts. But then later came "materialism", which rejected the validity of subjectivity, so then good and evil once again became a matter of fact. That then resulted in social darwinism which resulted in nazism, communism, the holocaust and the threat of thermonuclear war.
After the holocaust, seeing ast that there were thousands of basically nazi eugenics courses in universities accross the world, it was decided something needed to be done about these pseudoscientific facts of good and evil. But rather than acknowledging the validity of subjectivity with it's own proper spiritual domain, the scientific community decided that opinion is inherent in statements of fact, postmodernism. And this then worked to some extent to allow subjectivity, eventhough now subjectivity was seen as an inevitable undesirable element in statements of fact. Starting in the late 70's the obvious weakness in postmodernist discourse resulted in a reactionary social darwinist movement, mainly in biology. They claimed that it is a "naturalistic fallacy" to take prescriptive applicability from science, which idea was meant to put the blame for the holocaust outside of the scientific community. Then there was 9/11, and all these scientists who talked about the naturalistic fallacy found that they had no morality intellectually to face evil with. Where before they simply did not bother about questions about what should and should not at all, 9/11 forced them to have some morality. So they went to conjure up a morality, and then they were back to pretty straightforward variations of social darwinism again.
What the next move of the scientists is going to be is unclear. There is a specific effort to deny free will in courts of law. To this end there are combination neurology and law studies offered at universities. This is to explain behaviour of suspects in terms of being forced by all sorts of pyshcological and environmental factors. It is an effort to take out the idea of the human spirit freely choosing from the law, because all things spiritual are held to be nonsense by these scientists, because they don't accept the validity of subjectivity. Pretty clear also that scientists are now feeding fear of Islam, and posturing science against religion.
gnostic
The Lost One
People who think creationism is "science" is intellectually deficient and woefully uneducated.
Creationism is nothing than myth, invented by primitive people who didn't understand the natural world they lived in. But sadly creationists still existed in this day and age, and who still believe in superstitions. And that's when you have people who wish to remain stubbornly ignorant.
And clearly anyone who believe that "science" is "holy" is utterly stupid, because they don't know what "science" is and they don't know what "holy" is.
Sorry for using word "stupid", here, but I hate mincing words.
Creationism is nothing than myth, invented by primitive people who didn't understand the natural world they lived in. But sadly creationists still existed in this day and age, and who still believe in superstitions. And that's when you have people who wish to remain stubbornly ignorant.
And clearly anyone who believe that "science" is "holy" is utterly stupid, because they don't know what "science" is and they don't know what "holy" is.
Sorry for using word "stupid", here, but I hate mincing words.
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
Nature is the executor of God's laws: Galileo
The Bible is a collection of primitive legends that are nevertheless pretty childish - Einstein
Ciao
- viole
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outhouse
Atheistically
Its amazing so many people live primitive mythology, and outright refuse credible knowledge and education.
There should be no excuse.
Legends and myths, especially tales with a happy end, are very warm and comfortable.
Ciao
- viole
Yerda
Veteran Member
There is often a meeting of elbows over what constitutes good reason for accepting a claim. There are many people who believe important things about the world without evidence. This is at odds with science in spirit and practice, imo.
However, not all religion boils down to rules about behaviour and claims about how we got here, etc. Not even the ones that are problematic today.
For me, the sciences are the closest thing I have to a religion. I know that's usually something atheists are accused of and meant as an insult but it's how I honestly feel.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
This is obviously false, as many if not most scientists are theists and belong to an organized religion. They, obviously, don't see an issue.
outhouse
Atheistically
True, when read in context.
When taken literally they make people fly planes into tall buildings, and other unspeakable acts of terrorism