Science IS religion

[Subduction Zone]

The bible and history do confirm that nature was different in the past. Try to grasp that science does not know one way or the other. So evidence for one or the other will not be from science! If you claim science does know what the forces and laws of nature were like tens of millions of (science) years ago, then simply post the evidence.

Without evidence the fables of origin science can and will be regarded as misguided opinions and baseless beliefs.

How do they do that? I don't think that Bible says anything about a different nature past and I know history does not make any such ridiculous claims.

Waving your hands and spouting nonsense is not evidence. Please support your claims.

 

[dad]

How do they do that? I don't think that Bible says anything about a different nature past and I know history does not make any such ridiculous claims.

Waving your hands and spouting nonsense is not evidence. Please support your claims.

History records long life spans as well as spirits among men. The bible tells of fast growing trees, long life spans and a different weather system, as well as spirits marrying people on earth.

 

[Subduction Zone]

History records long life spans as well as spirits among men. The bible tells of fast growing trees, long life spans and a different weather system, as well as spirits marrying people on earth.

No, it doesn't You are now conflating myth with history. And of course as you already know the early books of the Bible are just myths as well. Nor is there any historical record of different weather systems.

Of course weather would not even effect the evidence that you are complaining about. Once more you refute yourself.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

Secondly, we are looking only from INSIDE OUR own time 'zone' or area. We might call that area the fishbowl. Time in the fishbowl is all we ever see. If we see light streaming in from distant stars, it still is seen here in our space and time in the fishbowl. So whatever time it takes only represents time unfolding here.

My objection is not that you present this as a tantalizing possibility of the nature of our universe. My objection is that you bank on this as a certainty, and do so with no evidence to support it. You state (as well as scientists) that we can not "know" or be for certain that laws of nature are the same at every point in our universe (which is why science calls it an "assumption" rather than a "theory", "hypothesis", "fact" or "law"). But if that is true, you can not "know" that there are (or were) times or places where the natural laws behaved differently within our universe.

Sorry, but you are in no position to say what similar evolving from kinds happened or not after and before the flood, and later changes in nature.

Putting the cart before the horse. Before you can stipulate that we can not know anything "before or after the flood", you must first show the existence of the flood to begin with. Attempts at doing this have failed to be convincing.

The bible and history do confirm that nature was different in the past.

The Bible is not history.
History does not confirm that nature was different in the past.

 

[sooda]

History records long life spans as well as spirits among men. The bible tells of fast growing trees, long life spans and a different weather system, as well as spirits marrying people on earth.

Their life spans were shorter than ours.. Many infants died at birth or soon after. Life expectancy was around 40 years.. An 80 year old would be unusual.

The Bible doesn't "record" anything. Its didactic literature.

 

[metis]

When someone claims that anyone who accepts the basic ToE isn't a true Christian, much like the "not a true Scotsman" fallacy, they are doing something that Jesus told us not to do, namely "... judge ye not...".

The ToE simply does not go against Judeo-Christian beliefs as the real issue for both observant Jews and Christians is whether God created all, and we do believe that. When someone slips into judgmentalism, they actually are undermining the teachings of both faiths by their willingness to judge others, often matched with self-centered nastiness as we've repeatedly seen with some here at RF. I left my fundamentalist Protestant church 50 years ago because of this kind of anti-science bigotry.

 

[sooda]

When someone claims that anyone who accepts the basic ToE isn't a true Christian, much like the "not a true Scotsman" fallacy, they are doing something that Jesus told us not to do, namely "... judge ye not...".

The ToE simply does not go against Judeo-Christian beliefs as the real issue for both observant Jews and Christians is whether God created all, and we do believe that. When someone slips into judgmentalism, they actually are undermining the teachings of both faiths by their willingness to judge others, often matched with self-centered nastiness as we've repeatedly seen with some here at RF. I left my fundamentalist Protestant church 50 years ago because of this kind of anti-science bigotry.

Christians are NOT required to reject science and education or to accept myths without questions. BLIND faith is for dogs, not human beings.

 

[gnostic]

History records long life spans as well as spirits among men. The bible tells of fast growing trees, long life spans and a different weather system, as well as spirits marrying people on earth.

History doesn't say anything about spirits being true, only that people believe in such things in religions and in primitive superstitions.

Nothing in history confirm or deny the existence of spirits.

What people write about, don't necessarily mean they are writing history. They also write about and tell of stories myths, fables and folklores, stories that define nature, and the Bible is example of such belief.

Talking donkey and talking serpent, don't exist, except in myths, fables, folklore and modern fictions (as well as in TVs and movies).

You seriously have lost grip of reality if you think talking serpent and donkey are true history.

 

[gnostic]

Their life spans were shorter than ours.. Many infants died at birth or soon after. Life expectancy was around 40 years.. An 80 year old would be unusual.

The Bible doesn't "record" anything. Its didactic literature.

Yes, generally shorter.

Those who usually live longer, were usually from noble or royal families, as long as they can avoid diseases, being killed by accident or in battles, or assassinations.

 

[sooda]

History doesn't say anything about spirits being true, only that people believe in such things in religions and in primitive superstitions.

Nothing in history confirm or deny the existence of spirits.

What people write about, don't necessarily mean they are writing history. They also write about and tell of stories myths, fables and folklores, stories that define nature, and the Bible is example of such belief.

Talking donkey and talking serpent, don't exist, except in myths, fables, folklore and modern fictions (as well as in TVs and movies).

You seriously have lost grip of reality if you think talking serpent and donkey are true history.

Aesop was a Greek slave circa 625 BC who wrote over 600 animal fables to teach basic truths.

If we are created in God's image, why are we required to be bloody stupid and reject science and education for fundamentalism?

 

[sooda]

Yes, generally shorter.

Those who usually live longer, were usually from noble or royal families, as long as they can avoid diseases, being killed by accident or in battles, or assassinations.

The Bible exaggerates everything.. from population numbers to the grandiosity of Solomon to the "conquests" of Joshua.. All has been proven false. But, if you want to be a Christian, you have to reject the brain God gave you and be half a person.. braindead and compliant.

 

[gnostic]

The Bible exaggerates everything.. from population numbers to the grandiosity of Solomon to the "conquests" of Joshua.. All has been proven false. But, if you want to be a Christian, you have to reject the brain God gave you and be half a person.. braindead and compliant.

I find the ironies that creationists can reject other religions and their stories to be false, distorted or exaggerated, and yet their own stories in the Bible are exception.

For instance, dad believed that is very adamant that the talking serpent or donkey to be true, and historical, in the Bible, and yet the only evidences we have that such abilities to talk in human language are only found in myths, fables, folklores, fairytales, in children stories and modern fiction.

The reality is very different, and the biblical stories, from creation to King Solomon, are very far from being historical.

 

[dad]

Their life spans were shorter than ours.. Many infants died at birth or soon after. Life expectancy was around 40 years.. An 80 year old would be unusual.

The Bible doesn't "record" anything. Its didactic literature.

No, they lived about a thousand years. Whatever period you are talking about is more recent.

 

[dad]

My objection is not that you present this as a tantalizing possibility of the nature of our universe. My objection is that you bank on this as a certainty, and do so with no evidence to support it.

I consider Scripture certain. The only issue is what science knows that could relate to this.

You state (as well as scientists) that we can not "know" or be for certain that laws of nature are the same at every point in our universe (which is why science calls it an "assumption" rather than a "theory", "hypothesis", "fact" or "law").

I actually have not gotten much into that particular aspect of the debate. The issue with deep space is whether time and space as we know it here on earth (and fishbowl) is the very same or not, and if science knows. That is important because all the distances and long ages of billions of years require uniformity. I have avoided the matter of what laws might exist out there, because when we see the light from out there it all seems to obey the same laws. There is no real need to deal with whether some additional laws or forces might also be out there that are not here, or etc etc. It is a bit like hunting a deer. If we shoot the deer in the woods and it dies, then there is no need to go cut off it's head or shoot it a dozen times or etc because it is already dead. Likewise, with the cosmological theories on deep space, if time is different, that 'kills' the whole standard model and distances and sizes and etc etc etc. There is no need to then go and 'cut off the deer's head' because it is already dead!

But if that is true, you can not "know" that there are (or were) times or places where the natural laws behaved differently within our universe.

On earth, the issue is the forces and laws that existed long ago. We don't know what they were. Out in far space that is not the issue, time is.

Putting the cart before the horse. Before you can stipulate that we can not know anything "before or after the flood", you must first show the existence of the flood to begin with. Attempts at doing this have failed to be convincing.

Science cannot show the existence or non existence of the flood. Period. Either claim is one based on faith. Since science is out of the picture in that debate, we need to look around and see if there are any other evidences in the world, such as ancient records, common stories of a flood of some sort, Scripture records, etc.

If you wish to limit yourself only to science, then it is easy. You may not know either way! Just admit ignorance. No discussion needed. Either you show the real science that demonstrates one way or the other there was or was not a flood, or science is out of the loop. Sidelined.

The Bible is not history.

There is a long history of doubters of the bible being silenced with archaeological finds actually. There is no doubt that many of the characters of the New testament were actual people. There is no evidence any of the characters in the old testament were not real. The records were not just word of mouth of individuals telling stories. The records were carefully kept by a NATION! A nation that happened to kill any false prophets by the way!

History does not confirm that nature was different in the past.

[/QUOTE] False. The long life spans recorded in Sumer (despite any inaccuracy of pagan records) do tell us that people lived very much longer. The fact that spirits were a part of life also show that nature was not as now. (example, Egypt lists the early kings as gods or spirit beings)

 

[dad]

History doesn't say anything about spirits being true, only that people believe in such things in religions and in primitive superstitions.

Nothing in history confirm or deny the existence of spirits.

Actually spirits are very much a part of early history. The first kings of Egypt for example were said to be spirits.

What people write about, don't necessarily mean they are writing history. They also write about and tell of stories myths, fables and folklores, stories that define nature, and the Bible is example of such belief.

The prevalence of spirits is such that it is an intricate part of ancient history.

Talking donkey and talking serpent, don't exist, except in myths, fables, folklore and modern fictions (as well as in TVs and movies).

You were not there when Balam's animal saw the angel. You have no science to offer on the matter. No knowledge. No witnesses. Nothing. Only a totally uninformed opinion.

You seriously have lost grip of reality if you think talking serpent and donkey are true history.

The way Adam communicated is not known. Some suspect it was a form of telepathy that was the same as verbal communication. In the case of the donkey meeting the angel, the creator of donkeys and man can alter a creature temporarily, or have an angel speak it's thoughts directed from it's mouth area...or etc etc. Your attempts to limit the Almighty are laughable.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Bible exaggerates everything.. from population numbers to the grandiosity of Solomon to the "conquests" of Joshua.. All has been proven false. But, if you want to be a Christian, you have to reject the brain God gave you and be half a person.. braindead and compliant.

One has to be either braindead or believe that God is a liar. Assuming that dad is not braindead I often wonder why he worships a lying God.

 

[ratiocinator]

Actually spirits are very much a part of early history. The first kings of Egypt for example were said to be spirits.

The prevalence of spirits is such that it is an intricate part of ancient history.

You were not there when Balam's animal saw the angel. You have no science to offer on the matter. No knowledge. No witnesses. Nothing. Only a totally uninformed opinion.

The way Adam communicated is not known. Some suspect it was a form of telepathy that was the same as verbal communication. In the case of the donkey meeting the angel, the creator of donkeys and man can alter a creature temporarily, or have an angel speak it's thoughts directed from it's mouth area...or etc etc. Your attempts to limit the Almighty are laughable.

Is this some sort of joke? After all your demands for evidence from science - that you were actually given, and then ignored - you go on about these silly fables. Where is your evidence? You have no science to offer on the matter. No knowledge. No witnesses. Nothing. Only a totally uninformed opinion.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Is this some sort of joke? After all your demands for evidence from science - that you were actually given, and then ignored - you go on about these silly fables. Where is your evidence? You have no science to offer on the matter. No knowledge. No witnesses. Nothing. Only a totally uninformed opinion.

But he is willing to make these claims endlessly. His only tactics are denial and shifting the burden of proof.

 

[dad]

Is this some sort of joke? After all your demands for evidence from science - that you were actually given, and then ignored

Link!!?? You seem to be ignoring the fact that no evidence was given. Provide the link so we can again expose it for religious twaddle and not evidence!

 

[ratiocinator]

You seem to be ignoring the fact that no evidence was given.

You are bearing false witness again. We had a long exchange in which you totally ignored both evidence and logic regarding dating methods and I didn't have to scroll back far to find other people providing you links. The evidence for evolution is not a secret, it's really easy to find and to claim it doesn't exist at all is, quite apart from being obviously false as anybody can check, to accuse most of the world's specialists in multiple disciplines, may of whom are Christians, of being liars.

And once again you've ignored my request that you provide even the slightest hint of a morsel of evidence to support your claims. It is blatant hypocrisy to endlessly demand evidence from others, then ignore it, and refuse to provide evidence for your own claims.

Matthew 7:5
Exodus 20:16