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Science Proves Religions of the World To Be Accurate!

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Undoubtedly, but that is a recent development, again dating only from the late c.19th and found mainly in certain homespun strands of US Protestantism lacking a central body of doctrine or teaching hierarchy. It is not supported by the main Christian denominations.

The myth is that religion has historically "resisted" science "tooth and nail". It has not. Many influential scientists have been men of the cloth, including Copernicus, Mendel and Buckland (one of the founding fathers of geology and palaeontology, who came to be an opponent of "flood geology"). Going further back, William of Ockham and Roger Bacon, who first articulated the core ideas of natural science, were Franciscan friars.
Disagree, I believe the historical evidence confirms that the dominant belief in the history of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam is the belief in a literal Genesis. The text of the Torah, Bible, and the Koran specifically describes a literal interpretation of Genesis and the Pentateuch. The reason there was limited conflict, except for the Galileo affair, is that science had not advanced to the point of seriously questioning the Bible until the 18th and 19th centuries. What followed was the Reformation movement in Christianity and Judaism.

By the way, Mendel was deeply religious and believed in a literal Genesis. William Buckley was a 19th-century geologist and a part of the development of the modern history of life and Earth with Charles Darwin. Copernicus was part of the beginning of the Scientific Revolution. but did not challenge the literal interpretation of Genesis. He offered an alternate interpretation of the solar system based on astronomical observations.

Yes, William of Oakland and Roger Bacon were pioneers in the Scientific Revolution like Copernicus, but Christianity remained dominantly fundamentalist until the 19th century and became divided over science with today 30-40% of Christians remaining fundamentalist.
 
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exchemist

Veteran Member
Disagree, I believe the historical evidence confirms that the dominant belief in the history of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam is the belief in a literal Genesis. The text of the Torah, Bible, and the Koran specifically describes a literal interpretation of Genesis and the Pentateuch. The reason there was limited conflict, except for the Galileo affair, is that science had not advanced to the point of seriously questioning the Bible until the 18th and 19th centuries. What followed was the Reformation movement in Christianity and Judaism.
That's not supported by history. Read the link. Also bear in mind there is a long history of allegorical interpretation of the bible, dating right back to 200AD with Origen.

By the way it is meaningless to say the bible describes a literal interpretation of itself.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
The religiously motivated anti-evolution movement seems to be going pretty strong, and a lot of religious folk seem convinced of a 6,000 year old Earth, a world wide flood and a mass exodus from Egypt, despite contrary scientific consensus.
Every single university up the the Victorian Age was founded by the Church and they studied all manner of topics. You may be surprised to learn that Mediaeval Christians often jettisoned the Bible completely on topics of creation, the cosmos etc. and went with Greek explanations. They had no issue with the idea that the Bible had a dome or flat earth and the reality is a spherical earth, which everyone knew and I find no evidence of anyone using the Bible to gainsay this knowledge.

You guys really need to get out of North America because that's where all this creationist crap starts. It's a Victorian invention, a backlash.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Your belief in this tower of babel myth is the sort of nonsense religion promotes.

Reality has neither a religious nor a scientific basis.

That I believe there was a basis to the confused story we call the "Tower of Babel" is based on extensive evidence and logic and most certainly not anything appearing in any religious or scientific text of any kind.

That something happened is apparent. That there was a speciation event that gave rise to, signaled, the appearance of homo omnisciencis is based on extensive deduction and a theory crafted largely to explain modern human behavior and the reluctance to embrace science or reason by our species. We are slavishly wed to the past and to the status quo in all things except our own self destruction.

I do not not believe in the tower of babel to support either religion or science but rather because I believe it was real.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That's not supported by history. Read the link. Also bear in mind there is a long history of allegorical interpretation of the bible, dating right back to 200AD with Origen.

By the way it is meaningless to say the bible describes a literal interpretation of itself.
So you are saying that the origin of a non literal translation was with Origen?
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
So you are saying that the origin of a non literal translation was with Origen?
Not translation, but the earliest recorded non-literal interpretation, certainly.

According to MacCulloch’s* History of Christianity this was also true of the Jewish scholars of his time in Alexandria. They had been raised on Homer and understood the role of storytelling in conveying truths about the world and the human condition.

*Prof of church history at Oxford.

But yeah, the origin was with Origen:)
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
I love when science proves religious philosophies into scientific facts.

How would you define the term "religious philosophy"? It seems that by "religious philosophy" you may mean "religious doctrines or claims."

The word "philosophy" is often used that way. But to me, philosophy is a method of inquiry, and isn't necessarily bound to any doctrine or claim. It is more about unbiased inquiry (aka question-asking).

In what sense did you mean to use the word "philosophy"?
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
How would you define the term "religious philosophy"? It seems that by "religious philosophy" you may mean "religious doctrines or claims."

The word "philosophy" is often used that way. But to me, philosophy is a method of inquiry, and isn't necessarily bound to any doctrine or claim. It is more about unbiased inquiry (aka question-asking).

In what sense did you mean to use the word "philosophy"?
You might not be getting any answers from this guy any time soon ;)
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
That's not supported by history. Read the link. Also bear in mind there is a long history of allegorical interpretation of the bible, dating right back to 200AD with Origen.
You are overstating that Origen's allegorical interpretation does not translate to a complete allegorical interpretation by Origen nor the prevalence of allegorical interpretations of the Genesis and the Pentateuch. Origen like Augustine believed in both, which is not uncommon among theologians in the history of Christianity.


Only fragments of Origen’s vast literary corpus have survived the ravages of time. Nevertheless, from the extant works, we are able to reconstruct his hermeneutics (that is, his theory of scriptural interpretation) generally and his reading of Genesis 1-3 in particular. Origen’s sixteen extant Homilies on Genesis include his spiritual reading of the creation stories. Unfortunately, Origen’s Commentary on Genesis, written in thirteen books, do not survive, but he treats the creation narratives extensively in On First Principles. 1 Origen’s guiding hermeneutical principle is to “find a meaning worthy of God”2 or “worthy of divine majesty”3 Given the divine authorship of scripture through the Spirit, Origen presupposes: (1) the veracity of scripture and (2) the significance of every detail. Therefore, all apparent contradictions or textual infelicities must have sound theological explanations. Origen differentiates between the literal, moral, and spiritual senses of scripture in Book IV of his major theological book On First Principles. His hermeneutical framework enables the discovery of deeper truths beneath the literal or historical level of scripture, which has direct significance for his reading of the creation narratives, as we will see. In essence, Origen sees himself as a spiritual “code-breaker” of scripture. If we remain at the surface level of the text, we will miss the transformative truths that it conceals.

Origen interprets the two creation narratives in Genesis 1-2 as two separate creations: immaterial/incorporeal and material/corporeal: “And, therefore, that first heaven indeed, which we said is spiritual, is our mind, which is also itself spirit, that is, our spiritual man which sees and perceives God. But that corporeal heaven, which is called the firmament, is our outer man which looks at things in a corporeal way.”4 These two accounts are theologically related, but cosmologically distinct.Origen’s guiding hermeneutical principle is to “find a meaning worthy of God” or “worthy of divine majesty.” Share on FacebookShare on TwitterIn the first creation, God creates disembodied or incorporeal rational minds.5 Eventually, as Origen details in On First Principles 2.8.3, these rational minds “cool” in their love of God, which results in their fall from the blissful pre-existent state of union with God. Their divine defection creates a cosmic crisis, since it opens an expanding void between themselves and God, a negative “space” that threatens to alienate them from God permanently. God creates the material universe—the cosmos—to arrest their spiritual free-fall and to provide a context for their eventual return to God after an extensive process of purification and education: “For Origen, the material universe functions positively as a cosmic net that saves the soul from falling into oblivion. Moreover, it serves as a springboard for the soul’s journey back to God.”6

His theological-cosmological interpretation of Genesis, then, displays the soteriological shape of his hermeneutics. He reads the narrative for clues into meaning behind the cosmos. His interpretation engages soteriological—not scientific—questions: Why did God create the world? Why does it seem unjust? What is the purpose of life in this world? What happens afterwards? From these theological preliminaries he develops a soteriological framework for the soul’s fall (in the pre-existent realm), incarnation in the world (based on the degree of its decline), amelioration (through moral, intellectual, and spiritual renewal), and ultimate salvation (after an extensive process of education and purification in this world and in the afterlife). To fixate on the biological mechanisms by which the cosmos arose would blind us to the underlying point. A patient does not need to know the precise chemical compounds of their medication, or the history of its development, only that they must take it to recover their health. Similarly, as fallen souls who suffer from various moral ailments that impair our spiritual well-being, the crucial question is not how the universe unfolded, but why, and what do we do now that we find ourselves in it?"

Origin believed in Adam and Eve, the Fall, and Original Sin.

"In the first creation, God creates disembodied or incorporeal rational minds.5 Eventually, as Origen details in On First Principles 2.8.3, these rational minds “cool” in their love of God, which results in their fall from the blissful pre-existent state of union with God. Their divine defection creates a cosmic crisis since it opens an expanding void between themselves and God, a negative “space” that threatens to alienate them from God permanently."

By your over-emphasis on Origen, you neglect the other Church Fathers like Ephraim (Ephrem) the Syrian (306–373) and Basil of Caesarea (329–379). Yes it was common for the interpretation of Days of Creation not to mean literal days, and some interpreted Creation to be instantaneous, but a literal interpretation dominated with the Creation of Adam and Eve, the Fall, and Original Sin.

Next the Church Fathers and Noah.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Every single university up the the Victorian Age was founded by the Church and they studied all manner of topics. You may be surprised to learn that Mediaeval Christians often jettisoned the Bible completely on topics of creation, the cosmos etc. and went with Greek explanations. They had no issue with the idea that the Bible had a dome or flat earth and the reality is a spherical earth, which everyone knew and I find no evidence of anyone using the Bible to gainsay this knowledge.

You guys really need to get out of North America because that's where all this creationist crap starts. It's a Victorian invention, a backlash.
It did not begin there. It began with the Reformation in Christian Europe and the Jewish Reformation in the 1700s. before this, the literal interpretation of Creation with Adam and Eve and Noah's flood was considered factual. A mix of literal and allegorical interpretations with variable dating dominated Christianity before the 18th century.

You're dealing with the contemporary controversy when scientists like Darwin and Buckland provided scientific evidence for the faults of the Bible and split over the literal versus allegorical interpretation when science and archaeology were seriously challenging the literal interpretation particularly Creation with Adam and Eve, and Noah's flood.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Not translation, but the earliest recorded non-literal interpretation, certainly.

According to MacCulloch’s* History of Christianity this was also true of the Jewish scholars of his time in Alexandria. They had been raised on Homer and understood the role of storytelling in conveying truths about the world and the human condition.

*Prof of church history at Oxford.

But yeah, the origin was with Origen:)
Actually, the beliefs of Origen were shared by some other Church Fathers in varying degree and are common throughout history

Origen still believed in both a literal and allegorical interpretation as many theologians believed in history. Adam and Eve were considered the first humans, and the Fall and Original Sin were very much a part of the belief of all the Church Fathers, and the basis of the foundation of the Christian Churches today no matter how literal they believed the Bible text is.

Only a few Church Fathers considered the Genesis Creation was word for word literal, and it is not a common belief today.

The flood of Noah was considered a real literal historical event by ALL the Church Fathers.
The Church Fathers on the Genesis Flood
by Paul Garner

Noah's ark

Central to the account of early earth history provided in the Bible is the global Flood in the days of Noah, described in Genesis 6–9. For modern young-age creationists, the Flood provides a framework for understanding the origin of the sedimentary rock layers and the fossils contained in them.

Although some critics have alleged that young-age creationism is a theological novelty that arose only in the last century or so,1 it can be demonstrated that belief in a worldwide Flood with geological effects was not a twentieth-century innovation. From the earliest days of the Christian church, the universality of the Flood was accepted on the testimony of the biblical text, and fossils were sometimes regarded as evidence of the cataclysm.

From the earliest days of the Christian church, the universality of the Flood was accepted on the testimony of the biblical text, and fossils were sometimes regarded as evidence of the cataclysm.
This can be readily illustrated by reviewing the writings of the Church Fathers on this subject. Here are some extracts from them.

Justin Martyr (103–165) affirmed the universality of the Flood when he wrote that ‘the whole earth, as the Scripture says, was inundated, and the water rose in height fifteen cubits above all the mountains’.2

Theophilus (c. 115–185), Patriarch of Antioch, noted the belief of the Greek philosopher Plato that the Flood ‘extended not over the whole earth, but only over the plains, and that those who fled to the highest hills saved themselves.’

He also drew attention to pagan myths about the preservation of Deucalion and Pyrrha in a chest and the notion that there had been a second flood in the days of Clymenus.

But he rejected these ideas saying: ‘But Moses, our prophet and the servant of God, in giving an account of the genesis of the world, related in what manner the flood came upon the earth, telling us, besides, how the details of the flood came about, and relating no fable of Pyrrha nor of Deucalion or Clymenus; nor, forsooth, that only the plains were submerged, and that those only who escaped to the mountains were saved. And neither does he make out that there was a second flood: on the contrary, he said that never again would there be a flood of water on the world; as neither indeed has there been, nor ever shall be.’3

Furthermore, he wrote, ‘the flood lasted forty days and forty nights, torrents pouring from heaven, and from the fountains of the deep breaking up, so that the water overtopped every high hill 15 cubits. And thus the race of all the men that then were was destroyed, and those only who were protected in the ark were saved; and these, we have already said, were eight. And of the ark, the remains are to this day to be seen in the Arabian mountains. This, then, is in sum the history of the deluge.’4

Tertullian (c. 160–225), the prolific Carthaginian apologist, spoke of fossils in the mountains testifying to a time when the globe had been covered by water. ‘There was a time when her whole orb, withal, underwent mutation, overrun by all waters. To this day marine conchs and tritons’ horns sojourn as foreigners on the mountains, eager to prove to Plato that even the heights have undulated.’5

Gregory of Nazianzus (329–389) described Noah as one ‘entrusted with the saving of the whole world from the waters’ and as having escaped the destruction ‘in a small ark’.6

John Chrysostom (c. 347–407), Archbishop of Constantinople, wrote concerning the Flood: ‘See the precision of Scripture, how it not only taught us the year of the deluge but also made clear the month and the day.’

Furthermore, commenting on Genesis 7:11, he said: ‘See the extent of the considerateness Sacred Scripture employs here too, describing everything in a human manner: it is not that there are sluice gates in heaven, but rather that it describes everything in terms customary with us, as if to say that the Lord simply gave a direction and immediately the waters obeyed their Creator’s command, fell out of the heavens on all sides and inundated the whole world.’7

Augustine (354–430), Bishop of Hippo, rejected the exclusively allegorical interpretations of the Flood account by commentators who supposed ‘that there could not be a flood so great that the water should rise fifteen cubits above the highest mountains’.8

Pseudo-Eustathius (c. 375–500) even pointed to fossils as evidence of the Flood: ‘Since the waters covered the summits of the mountains, they were covered over and hidden by their flowing. For in these times of ours also, on the summit of Mt. Lebanon, men who cut stone for marking boundaries find various types of marine fishes, which must have been gathered together in the caves of the mountains when they were caught in the mud.’9

Procopius of Gaza (c. 465–528) did likewise: ‘It can be shown clearly in many other ways that a universal flood came upon the earth, by which those people are persuaded who believe with difficulty that these things were explained by Moses. For even today, in mountains that are lofty and difficult to climb, marine remains are found, that is, shells and fragments of tortoise shells and other such things, which even we ourselves have seen.’10

In fact, the only Church Father known to have adopted the view that the Flood was a local event seems to have been Pseudo-Justin (identified by some with Theodoret of Cyrus, c. 393–457).11

The historical evidence suggests that when John Whitcomb and Henry Morris wrote their classic book, The Genesis Flood, in 1961, launching the modern creationist movement and reviving the idea that the fossil-bearing portion of the geological record is a testimony to Noah’s Flood, they were not dreaming up some novelty.

They were in fact part of a lineage of scholarly biblical interpretation stretching back into antiquity. They were standing on the shoulders of giants.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It did not begin there. It began with the Reformation in Christian Europe and the Jewish Reformation in the 1700s. before this, the literal interpretation of Creation with Adam and Eve and Noah's flood was considered factual. A mix of literal and allegorical interpretations with variable dating dominated Christianity before the 18th century.

You're dealing with the contemporary controversy when scientists like Darwin and Buckland provided scientific evidence for the faults of the Bible and split over the literal versus allegorical interpretation when science and archaeology were seriously challenging the literal interpretation particularly Creation with Adam and Eve, and Noah's flood.
It was when science advanced enough to threaten orthodox church doctrine or the authority of the church that serious disagreements began.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Reality has neither a religious nor a scientific basis.
So how does one decide what is real, if not by authority or reason?
That I believe there was a basis to the confused story we call the "Tower of Babel" is based on extensive evidence and logic and most certainly not anything appearing in any religious or scientific text of any kind.
No. The only evidence of such a structure or event is religious mythology.
That something happened is apparent. That there was a speciation event that gave rise to, signaled, the appearance of homo omnisciencis is based on extensive deduction and a theory crafted largely to explain modern human behavior and the reluctance to embrace science or reason by our species.
Speciation is a constant "event." The reality of our species is not based on deduction, but on hard, objective evidence. I don't know what H omnisciencis is.
We are slavishly wed to the past and to the status quo in all things except our own self destruction.
What does that mean?
I do not not believe in the tower of babel to support either religion or science but rather because I believe it was real.
Why? Based on what evidence?
 

Tinkerpeach

Active Member
It is interesting that you use the word "now" as opposed to always. This seems to be religions catching up with science. The spherical earth for example.
Absolutely, scientific discoveries help to clear up many things in the Bible that we don’t understand. It’s also amazing that nothing science has discovered has ever contradicted anything in the Bible.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Absolutely, scientific discoveries help to clear up many things in the Bible that we don’t understand. It’s also amazing that nothing science has discovered has ever contradicted anything in the Bible.
Are you sure about that? We know that there was no flood of Noah. We know that there never were only two people. Pretty much we know that Genesis is a series of myths or morality tales.


There are other contradictions and problems in the Bible as well if one reads it at all literally. Was Jesus born twice? The Nativity myths in Luke and Matthew are ten years apart from each other. Moses appears to be fictional.

The problems are endless if one reads the Bible literally at all.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
It was when science advanced enough to threaten orthodox church doctrine or the authority of the church that serious disagreements began.
One thing that is neglected by those who fail to understand the texts and history of Christianity and Islam concerning fundamentalist beliefs concerning a degree of the scripture being literal is that a degree of literal interpretation is grounded in their text, theology, and beliefs. This does not indicate that an absolute literal interpretation is necessary. Literal and allegorical companion interpretations have always been a part of their history.

The problem is the authors of the NT consider Adam and Eve. and Noah's Flood as literal and essential to the purpose of Jesus Christ and the salvation of humanity, at least those deserving.

The Koran specifically states the Pentateuch is literally true and history.

These problems will always be an anchor around the necks of the ancient tribal views of Christianity and Islam.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Absolutely, scientific discoveries help to clear up many things in the Bible that we don’t understand. It’s also amazing that nothing science has discovered has ever contradicted anything in the Bible.
The contradictions between the Bible and science are numerous.

Let us begin with Noah's Arc and the Flood. This is completely in contradiction with science and the known history of humanity and the Earth.
 

Tinkerpeach

Active Member
The contradictions between the Bible and science are numerous.

Let us begin with Noah's Arc and the Flood. This is completely in contradiction with science and the known history of humanity and the Earth.
No it isn’t.

The Bible said the Earth flooded but in Hebrew the word Earth has six different meanings.

Everything from your dwelling to a plot of land to the entire planet.

Archeology has already proven that region was living in experienced a massive flood during his time so no contradiction.

You just don’t know how to interpret the Bible.
 
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