Science standards under threat in Arizona

[BilliardsBall]

You mean from this post...

Which you didn't answer


Or this part...

Why comparative religion courses are untenable in American public schools

Which religions do we teach? It’s impossible to teach them all given that there are more than 10,000 species of belief on our planet, and you can’t teach “comparative” religion without at least a broad sampling—including the faiths of eastern Asia, Oceania, and Africa. Too, how do you teach them? You can imagine the squabbles between Sunni and Shia Muslim parents over the relative weights given to these faiths.

And what about the bad stuff that religion has inspired: the Inquisition, the Crusades, ISIS, and the doctrines of many faiths that oppress women, gays, or even unbelievers, as well as terrorize children. Do you neglect those issues, which, after all, comprise one reason to teach religion as a major force in history? How can you understand the colonization of America without understanding religious persecution? How can you teach about religious wars without mentioning the emnity produced by thinking that you, as opposed to your neighbor, have the absolute truth. And how do you deal with the Holocaust? Was that purely a cultural phenomenon?

The American solution, of course, is “fair play”: teach that all religions are not only good, but equally good, and that anything bad associated with them can be imputed not to religious beliefs but to culture. That is, you sanitize the entire endeavor to such a degree that students fail to understand religion.

​

Do you not understand the difference between "complicated" and "untenable"?

It’s impossible to teach them all given that there are more than 10,000 species of belief on our planet,
You can imagine the squabbles between Sunni and Shia Muslim parents over the relative weights given to these faiths.
And what about the bad stuff that religion has inspired: the Inquisition, the Crusades, ISIS, and the doctrines of many faiths that oppress women, gays, or even unbelievers,
And how do you deal with the Holocaust? Was that purely a cultural phenomenon?
you sanitize the entire endeavor to such a degree that students fail to understand religion.

No, you do not understand the difference between "complicated" and "untenable"?

Well, perhaps it's better not to push to teach certain things in schools, after all "A prudent man conceals knowledge,
But the heart of fools proclaims folly."

 

[ecco]

...

Well, perhaps it's better not to push to teach certain things in schools, after all "A prudent man conceals knowledge,
But the heart of fools proclaims folly."

I just posted the following to you in another thread...

Your response is typical of many of your responses. When you get called out for posting BS you ignore and duck and dodge.
​

It obviously applies here as well.

• You make a bunch of nonsense claims or statements
• People call you out on your nonsense claims or statements
• You post trite verses from your Bible

 

[dimmesdale]

If the 'best' kids are sent to the 'best' schools, and we use standardized testing to measure performance, amazingly the 'best' schools rate better.

Why is it amazing? It is not a level playing field since the best can expel or refuse admission. For example, we do not do special needs students here.

If there is a financial incentive for the best schools to perform better,

They are for profit and all things being equal they do not perform better. Most will not deal with our students if they don't have to. Esp when private schools underpay their teachers. The best are in public education. The ones who teach in private are public education rejects for a substantial part. Most new grads come out of college with perhaps 30 K in debt. They want the best paying jobs because they are in debt. They do not want low pay starter jobs in which they will still be on a ramen noodle diet at 25 K a yr.

then you will find skewed curriculums teaching to test, rather than testing to teach.

What tests, the SATs? How do they teach to the math SAT? I did ask you about the Math SAT and low and behold, you did not address. If they, as you say, teach to the math SAT and they score 700+ then that shows they are at a high skill level in math. If they are Black then it is hello Harvard. It predicts academic success.

Happily, this all can be presented in a neat, self-fulfilling package asking people to look at how the 'best' schools are doing, and encouraging them to use this 'evidence' to remove their kids from the public system, further perpetuating the cycle.

If the schools are war zones and their kids are targets and the adminstration is hiding under their desks then they should remove them. These schools have an obligation to meet and protect all their students.

You support both standardized testing AND the removal or reduction of evolution from the science curriculum?

Evolution is not science. You tell me, what application science value does teaching kids they come from an ape/human common ancestor mystery creature? How is all that invaluable to science and biology, is hamstrung if all this is simply ignored? Biology is not common ancestor dependent. It will advance without it and the whole evolution history narrative.

Interesting point of tension, but perhaps you simply draw a barrier around America and ignore the rest of the first world when setting 'standards'.

No point in ignoring the rest of the world. There is little i can do for the teaching methods in China. So why dwell on it? If the students in my district are building houses from the ground up and scoring between 7 to 800 on the math SATs then i am happy as can be.

I honestly don't mean to be elitist here, but have you spent any time studying the topic you are talking about in real detail? Have you considered systems with greater or lesser reliance on standardised testing?

I asked you what one factor beats the SATs in predicting academic performance for college? If the SATs are substandard then why do professionals in education focus on them in student evals? Do you know something they don't?

Let's step back for a moment...in you opinion, what is the impact of standardised testing on an education system, not only at SAT level, but throughout schooling?

It measures student progress and prevents grade inflation.

Says the person looking to develop a science curriculum taking religious sensibilities into account.

They do take religious sensibilities into account. They are professionals. If you are not sensitive to your students, their culture, then you do not belong in education.

There is a lack of consistency in your position.

*

So your argument is that a standardised test is a good representation of the skills they need to...what exactly?

College for one. I already wrote that.

What do you think the role of standardised testing is, how closely do you think it measures relateable skills, and what are you basing this on?

I do know colleges look at the SATs when evaluating students. There is a reason for them.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Why is it amazing? It is not a level playing field since the best can expel or refuse admission. For example, we do not do special needs students here.
They are for profit and all things being equal they do not perform better. Most will not deal with our students if they don't have to. Esp when private schools underpay their teachers. The best are in public education. The ones who teach in private are public education rejects for a substantial part. Most new grads come out of college with perhaps 30 K in debt. They want the best paying jobs because they are in debt. They do not want low pay starter jobs in which they will still be on a ramen noodle diet at 25 K a yr.
What tests, the SATs? How do they teach to the math SAT? I did ask you about the Math SAT and low and behold, you did not address.
If the schools are war zones and their kids are targets and the adminstration is hiding under their desks then they should remove them. These schools have an obligation to meet and protect all their students.

Evolution is not science. You tell me, what application science value does teaching kids they come from an ape/human common ancestor mystery creature? How is all that invaluable to science and biology, is hamstrung if all this is simply ignored? Biology is not common ancestor dependent. It will advance without it and the whole evolution history narrative. No point in ignoring the rest of the world. There is little i can do for the teaching methods in China. So why dwell on it? If the students in my district are building houses from the ground up and scoring between 7 to 800 on the math SATs then i am happy as can be.
I asked you what one factor beats the SATs in predicting academic performance for college? If the SATs are substandard then why do professionals in education focus on them in student evals? Do you know something they don't?
It measures student progress and prevents grade inflation.
They do take religious sensibilities into account. They are professionals. If you are not sensitive to your students, their culture, then you do not belong in education.
*

College for one. I already wrote that.
I do know colleges look at the SATs when evaluating students. There is a reason for them.

Why does the fact that we share a common ancestor with other apes irritate you so much? You do realize that that is only a very very small part of the theory of evolution don't you? There are many other applications besides that fact. The fact is that all of biology relies on the theory of evolution since biology does not make sense without this concept that unifies the science. It is more basic to biology than gravity is to physics and I hope that you would not be so desperate to claim that physics could and should be taught without gravity.

Once again, why not try to learn how and why we know that life as we know it is the product of evolution instead of making your ignorance of all sciences obvious? There are many people that would gladly help you here.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Why is it amazing? It is not a level playing field since the best can expel or refuse admission. For example, we do not do special needs students here.

No...but someone does. The disintegration of the school community into public and private leads to an increasingly difficult situation for the public education system. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. By taking the 'best' students only, it provides a skew regardless of anything else. It also directly contributes to drawing a gap in society along socio-economic lines, as opposed to merit-based education.

They are for profit and all things being equal they do not perform better. Most will not deal with our students if they don't have to. Esp when private schools underpay their teachers. The best are in public education. The ones who teach in private are public education rejects for a substantial part. Most new grads come out of college with perhaps 30 K in debt. They want the best paying jobs because they are in debt. They do not want low pay starter jobs in which they will still be on a ramen noodle diet at 25 K a yr.

So what is your point here? That giving teachers a choice between a low paying private system where they get to deal with hand-picked children, and don't require the same levels of certification versus a public system dealing with what's left, but they'll get better pay is healthy? My point was simply that it's a complete no-brainer that private schools outperform public on broadbrush academic testing. That speaks NOTHING to the quality of the education.

What tests, the SATs? How do they teach to the math SAT? I did ask you about the Math SAT and low and behold, you did not address. If they, as you say, teach to the math SAT and they score 700+ then that shows they are at a high skill level in math. If they are Black then it is hello Harvard. It predicts academic success.

So we teach so kids learn to be...students?

If the schools are war zones and their kids are targets and the adminstration is hiding under their desks then they should remove them. These schools have an obligation to meet and protect all their students.

Sure. I missed the point where I argued an unsafe school environment is good. But removing all the 'good' kids from the populations will surely help, right?

Evolution is not science.

Really? To be honest, you should just stop your argument there. You don't think evolution is science. The rest is tangental.

You tell me, what application science value does teaching kids they come from an ape/human common ancestor mystery creature? How is all that invaluable to science and biology, is hamstrung if all this is simply ignored? Biology is not common ancestor dependent. It will advance without it and the whole evolution history narrative.

Why is it we should not teach it? It's a fundamental question when it comes to education.

No point in ignoring the rest of the world. There is little i can do for the teaching methods in China. So why dwell on it? If the students in my district are building houses from the ground up and scoring between 7 to 800 on the math SATs then i am happy as can be.

My point is, it's myopic to only look at your local scenario when trying to determine how things can work. I'm an education professional in Australia. Part of both my degrees in the area was to study a wide variety of educational philosophies and approaches, and to look at how they perform in different contexts. It remains an interest of mine now, even though I've moved away from education and into the private sector.
You seem like you are comparing performance against hard testing measurements within the American system by kids of (average) affluent socio-economic backgrounds to those of (average) poor ones, stating that the private schools perform better, whilst also saying people are leaving the public system due to safety concerns, etc. None of that appears the least bit informative, or under argument...
To whit;

Are Private Schools Worth It? - The Atlantic

The question here is how any of that has the least amount of connection with whether science should be taught in a science classroom, or whether theology should have right of reply.

I asked you what one factor beats the SATs in predicting academic performance for college? If the SATs are substandard then why do professionals in education focus on them in student evals? Do you know something they don't?

I really do wonder how much you've had to do with 'professionals in education' on a very detailed/daily basis. If you think they have a hive mind on this, and I'm swimming against the current, you're kidding yourself. Some countries, and educational systems, packed full of 'professionals in education' don't see the value of them at all. Some swear by them. Compare Finnish and Chinese systems, and then tell me what 'professionals in education' think.

This is worth a read if you're interested in the topic, as it's not the typical puff piece about Finnish education.

Finland’s schools were once the envy of the world. Now, they’re slipping.

It measures student progress and prevents grade inflation.

Right...measure student progress. So that is why people readily look at the improvement of standard testing scores on a student by student basis, and use that as a published measure for educational standards, rather than simply put up average SAT scores across a school population and act like the skewed student population isn't more responsible for these than the teaching, right?

They do take religious sensibilities into account. They are professionals. If you are not sensitive to your students, their culture, then you do not belong in education.

'They' is 'me'. I taught a largely Christian population, was the supervising teacher during religious education classes specifically BECAUSE I could separate my beliefs from curriculum...
That does NOT mean we subvert science education during science classes to Christian, Muslim, or Indigenous beliefs on creation.
THAT is professionalism...not kowtowing to pressure groups using school curriculum as a battleground.

College for one. I already wrote that.
I do know colleges look at the SATs when evaluating students. There is a reason for them.

Sure. Making courses prestigious allows them to charge enormous fees for them.
In Australia, there are two ways you can get into many college courses.
Either you can meet the entrance criteria in an academic sense, which involves some combination of what we call a TER (basically, high school score), sometimes an entrance exam, or an interview.
Or, you can pay the fee fully and up front. In which case you get access to a small, reserved pool of spaces. The SAT/entrance exam concept is not commonly used at all, and where it is, the exam is specific to the course being applied for. For example, I sat an entrance exam when applying for a Journalism course. This was very specifically tailored around journalism related skills, including word definition and usage, editing of text bodies to retain meaning and clarify, plus general reading comprehension skills at an advanced level.

Again, if you're actually interested in this topic, consider the following;
Study: High school grades best predictor of college success — not SAT/ACT scores

 

[Polymath257]

Evolution is not science.

Actual researchers in the relevant science disagree. And that is all that needs to be said.

 

[BilliardsBall]

...

I just posted the following to you in another thread...

Your response is typical of many of your responses. When you get called out for posting BS you ignore and duck and dodge.
​

It obviously applies here as well.

• You make a bunch of nonsense claims or statements
• People call you out on your nonsense claims or statements
• You post trite verses from your Bible

I apologize! Here is a non-trite verse:

"A righteous man hates falsehood,
But a wicked man acts disgustingly and shamefully."

 

[ecco]

I apologize! Here is a non-trite verse:

"A righteous man hates falsehood,
"

A. Obviously you do not hate yourself.
B. You post falsehoods.
C. A righteous man hates falsehood.

Conclusion from the facts: You are not a righteous man.

 

[Audie]

A. Obviously you do not hate yourself.
B. You post falsehoods.
C. A righteous man hates falsehood.

Conclusion from the facts: You are not a righteous man.

It is chronic, but perhaps not incurable?

One so addicted must of course first recognize
that he has a problem.

 

[dimmesdale]

No...but someone does. The disintegration of the school community into public and private leads to an increasingly difficult situation for the public education system. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. By taking the 'best' students only, it provides a skew regardless of anything else. It also directly contributes to drawing a gap in society along socio-economic lines, as opposed to merit-based education.

Public education is fine in my area. It may have extra challenges in other areas where private education is funded with public monies without having to adhere to title 9 requirements. All the gravy and none of the grief.

So we teach so kids learn to be...students?

This is a dodge to an explicit question for the third time.

Sure. I missed the point where I argued an unsafe school environment is good. But removing all the 'good' kids from the populations will surely help, right?

If the standard is helping then your sarcasm does not help.

Really? To be honest, you should just stop your argument there. You don't think evolution is science. The rest is tangental.

I don't. So what, the requirements are not determined by folks like me. It does not get a lot of class time and students generally find it boring.

Why is it we should not teach it? It's a fundamental question when it comes to education.

Another dodge. Common ancestor or animal lineage belongs in the myth category. Right next to little men in sperm. It is as useful to applicable science as is reading bumps on head is to psychology. Has zero application value to medicine.

The question here is how any of that has the least amount of connection with whether science

It is not science.

should be taught in a science classroom, or whether theology should have right of reply.

Perhaps they can squeeze it in history in some ways. Like 19th century precursors to 20th-century race wars based on obsolete race theories. Something like that.

I really do wonder how much you've had to do with 'professionals in education' on a very detailed/daily basis.

Free rent in your head? Don't expect the same from me.

Right...measure student progress. So that is why people readily look at the improvement of standard testing scores on a student by student basis, and use that as a published measure for educational standards, rather than simply put up average SAT scores across a school population and act like the skewed student population isn't more responsible for these than the teaching, right?

Improvement is fine.

'They' is 'me'. I taught a largely Christian population, was the supervising teacher during religious education classes specifically BECAUSE I could separate my beliefs from curriculum...
That does NOT mean we subvert science education

It is not science. Repeating the same mantras does not make it so.

during science classes to Christian, Muslim, or Indigenous beliefs on creation.

Well i read somewhere some Muslims are removing evolution. What do ya know? They must think it is useless. Wasn't Ken Ham an Australian educator?

THAT is professionalism...not kowtowing to pressure groups using school curriculum as a battleground.

Everybody, to some extent, kowtows to the mob. Angry parents etc. This includes frontline teachers who are sometimes subject to parental wrath. My child does not lie! How many times did teachers hear that one? The way it got in was thru the courts and those who pay the freight have a say in what is taught. Don't expect taxpayors to sit back like sheep and kowtow to what is being taught. That is a recipe for diaster (myopic, as you say) and it is usually the front line teacher who receives the brunt of anger for subjects taught. They do some whacky things in education. Like letting boys come to school in dresses and usage of the girls bathroom. Naturally this is going to **** some parents off and they are going to scream bloody murder if little boys in dresses are in the same bathroom as the little girl who wants them the hell out! Sometimes children have more sense than adults.

Again, if you're actually interested in this topic, consider the following;
Study: High school grades best predictor of college success — not SAT/ACT scores

Your link does not work because i have ad blocker. It does not make it past my firewall. Besides, i already know their case and their motives much of which is to dumb things down. Remove the math requirements because minorities and females fail at too high rates for the bean counters. We need to dumb down all the STEM courses so we can allow more 2nd and 3rd stringers into the mix. Race preferences where Whites and Asians are kicked to the back of the line.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Public education is fine in my area. It may have extra challenges in other areas where private education is funded with public monies without having to adhere to title 9 requirements. All the gravy and none of the grief.
This is a dodge to an explicit question for the third time.
If the standard is helping then your sarcasm does not help.
I don't. So what, the requirements are not determined by folks like me. It does not get a lot of class time and students generally find it boring.
Another dodge. Common ancestor or animal lineage belongs in the myth category. Right next to little men in sperm. It is as useful to applicable science as is reading bumps on head is to psychology. Has zero application value to medicine.
It is not science. Perhaps they can squeeze it in history in some ways. Like 19th century precursors to 20th-century race wars based on obsolete race theories. Something like that.
Free rent in your head? Don't expect the same from me.
Improvement is fine.
It is not science. Well i read somewhere some Muslims are removing evolution. What do ya know? They must think it is useless. Wasn't Ken Ham an Australian educator?
Everybody kowtows to the mob. Angry parents etc. This includes frontline teachers who are sometimes subject to parental wrath. My child does not lie! How many times did teachers hear that one?
Your link does not work because i have ad blocker. It does not make it past my firewall. Besides, i already know their case and their motives much of which is to dumb things down. Remove the math requirements because minorities and females fail at too high rates for the bean counters. We need to dumb down all the STEM courses so we can allow more 2nd and 3rd stringers into the mix. Race preferences where Whites and Asians are kicked to the back of the line.

Still denying the obvious Yes, evolution is science. This tells us that you do not even understand the scientific method. When people point out your obvious ignorance you take it as a personal attack rather than as an observation and the beginning of an offer of help. To advance in one's education one has to very often realize what one does not know. You do not even appear to understand the very basics of science. That is why I have offered to help and others have offered to do the same.

Would you like to go over why we know that the theory of evolution is scientific and how we know that it is almost certainly (nothing, not even gravity in science is "proven") is correct?

 

[Audie]

Public education is fine in my area. It may have extra challenges in other areas where private education is funded with public monies without having to adhere to title 9 requirements. All the gravy and none of the grief.
This is a dodge to an explicit question for the third time.
If the standard is helping then your sarcasm does not help.
I don't. So what, the requirements are not determined by folks like me. It does not get a lot of class time and students generally find it boring.
Another dodge. Common ancestor or animal lineage belongs in the myth category. Right next to little men in sperm. It is as useful to applicable science as is reading bumps on head is to psychology. Has zero application value to medicine.
It is not science. Perhaps they can squeeze it in history in some ways. Like 19th century precursors to 20th-century race wars based on obsolete race theories. Something like that.
Free rent in your head? Don't expect the same from me.
Improvement is fine.
It is not science. Well i read somewhere some Muslims are removing evolution. What do ya know? They must think it is useless. Wasn't Ken Ham an Australian educator?
Everybody kowtows to the mob. Angry parents etc. This includes frontline teachers who are sometimes subject to parental wrath. My child does not lie! How many times did teachers hear that one?
Your link does not work because i have ad blocker. It does not make it past my firewall. Besides, i already know their case and their motives much of which is to dumb things down. Remove the math requirements because minorities and females fail at too high rates for the bean counters. We need to dumb down all the STEM courses so we can allow more 2nd and 3rd stringers into the mix. Race preferences where Whites and Asians are kicked to the back of the line.

We are do glad that folks like you are not determining
what is taught. Not anymore.

Militant anti-science 'n ignorance wont substitute
for an angel with a flaming sword to guard the
gates to the trailer parks.*

Speaking of Asians, as you did, dont worry about
them, unless it is you are worried about being
overwhelmed.

Ever been over there? There are really a lot
of very smart hard working ambitious people,
who are not crippled by some archaic religious
constraints on what they can comprehend
about science.

"Evolution is not science" ranks, in China,
alongside things like the USA having a
serious presidential candidate who claims
he persusded "god" to divert a hurricane.

Somewhere between laughable, and, horrifying,

With your notion of science as standard in the
US, the hurricane will be the USA being overwhelmed
by smarter competitors.

* home of the fundies who are characterized by
low socio economic and education levels.

 

[dimmesdale]

Still denying the obvious

Tell you what dude, i may decide to respond to some of your posts if you donate a hundred bucks to this site. Have a nice day.

 

[Audie]

Tell you what dude, i may decide to respond to some of your posts if you donate a hundred bucks to this site. Have a nice day.

You too.

While you can.

Weee're coming for you!

 

[dimmesdale]

We are do glad that folks like you are not determining
what is taught. Not anymore.

Well i just collect my paycheck and go home and turn on the tube.

Militant anti-science 'n ignorance won't substitute
for an angel with a flaming sword to guard the
gates to the trailer parks.*

Speaking of Asians, as you did, dont worry about
them, unless it is you are worried about being
overwhelmed.

My best friend is a Chinese immigrant who worked 6 days weeks for 100 dollars a month with a college degree in China. She got out even if it meant relocating from her country, family, and friends and going it alone here in the United States to marry an old American.

Ever been over there?

Yup.

"Evolution is not science" ranks, in China,
alongside things like the USA having a
serious presidential candidate who claims
he persusded "god" to divert a hurricane.

Well i think of corporal cue ball and his comments about dragging a hundred dollar bill thru a trailor park and who knows what is found when it comes to current events.

Somewhere between laughable, and, horrifying,

Are you afraid? You have a nice day. Keep the smooth side up! Thanx for contributing.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Tell you what dude, i may decide to respond to some of your posts if you donate a hundred bucks to this site. Have a nice day.

Why would I pay to help you out of your abject ignorance? If anything it should be the other way around, but then the ignorant do tend to get everything backwards.

 

[Jose Fly]

Common ancestor or animal lineage belongs in the myth category. Right next to little men in sperm. It is as useful to applicable science as is reading bumps on head is to psychology. Has zero application value to medicine.

I repeat: After the first time you made this claim, you were provided information that demonstrates how relative evolutionary relatedness among diverse taxa allows us to discern genetic function (CLICK HERE). You ignored that material, and now here you are repeating your claim as if no one had ever responded.

I'm curious.....do you think that's ethical behavior? Do you think you're representing your faith in positive light when you do that?

 

[Jose Fly]

I was taught about Nazism and the Holocaust in school

In science class?

but from the perspective that not only is racism an evil, but that a person's and culture's philosophy(s) can lead to excesses and evils.

So you were indoctrinated (according to your own standards). The KKK was not given an opportunity to present their opposing views.

I think what bothers me is you are self-led censor and opposed to first amendment freedom, or at least that's how I read it.

If that's true, why don't we allow the KKK to present their views on race in science classes? Surely you're not a "self-led censor and opposed to first amendment freedom", right?

"you'd have to show exactly which "facts and truth" you think I'm afraid of."

Let's see, the gospel, the Bible, religion, the KKK, Nazism, racism as a philosophical underpinning, basically anything not science, maybe?

What makes you think I'm afraid of those things?

 

[BilliardsBall]

A. Obviously you do not hate yourself.
B. You post falsehoods.
C. A righteous man hates falsehood.

Conclusion from the facts: You are not a righteous man.

I post truth, because Christianity is not based on faith, but on truth. Seek truth, crave it, heed it, obey it!

 

[BilliardsBall]

In science class?


So you were indoctrinated (according to your own standards). The KKK was not given an opportunity to present their opposing views.


If that's true, why don't we allow the KKK to present their views on race in science classes? Surely you're not a "self-led censor and opposed to first amendment freedom", right?


What makes you think I'm afraid of those things?

We don't need KKK members in science classes, science teachers can present (and sometimes do) on racism, eugenics, racial diversity, biological diversity, but your hypocrisy is this--respectfully to you, it's still hypocrisy--you not only want the religious to not be science teachers, you don't want ANYTHING religious or creation presented in science classes. Shame! YOU are opposed to first amendment freedoms!