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"Scientism" on Wikipedia ...

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
...
Well there is logic, and philosophy, but I don't believe it is possible to argue something into existence. So I'd need some objective evidence to support the claim, obviously specific to the context. You've heard the expression extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. However this sounds like you're asking me to accept that something exists beyond the material physical universe, and whilst I cannot and do not claim it does not exist, as it sounds like an unfalsifiable claim, I would have to disbelieve the claim unless something was offered that was more than a bare subjective assertion. Again not just for god claims, though of course some claims would be of a nature that accepting them wouldn't be particularly significant, if you claimed you owned a dog, I'd be unlikely to dispute it, for example, with or without any evidence.

Please explain in pure material physical terms and not everyday words how this sentence is material physical for its meaning.

I knew it. You do positive metaphysics. You just don't seem to understand that you do it.
So here is what is going to happen. You can't do what I asked you to do. So you will do something else.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Let's not be bogged down with the luggage that the word science implies - the empirical study of the world out there in an effort to discern general rules about the workings of physical reality and successfully apply them in the prediction of outcomes in the physical world.

I want to generalize this to include subjective truth such as Brussels sprouts tasting bad to me. If I can call it an objective fact that there is a difference of opinion about the taste of Brussels sprouts, then is it not also an objective fact to me which of those groups I fall in? I say it is, because it's not a matter of choice or a decision; it's an empiric discovery. I can't know how they taste without trying them. And if it's a repeatable experience, does it really matter to me that the sensory apparatus I'm using isn't my eyes to tell if it's daytime, or my ears to tell if it's thundering, or my skin to tell if it's hot out, but my taste (or smell) sensory apparatus.

I Have chosen the phrase informal science to refer to the data collection, induction of general rules, and testing of them that comprises daily life. When I go out and discover the my home is five blocks north and three blocks east of the pier (the induction derived from walking the streets and collecting information), and then leave my front door, walk five blocks south and three blocks west, and wind up at the pier (confirmation of the rule), I'm calling that informal science. It's exactly what occurs in an observatory, for example, when a scientist looks at the celestial neighborhood, generalizes about the motions of the celestial bodies he sees there, and then successfully predicts an eclipse, he's is doing the same thing, albeit formally. I call that formal science.

And I call them both empirical, recognizing that some empirically gained knowledge applies to everybody (anybody who looks up at the night sky to see an eclipse, or who wants to walk from my home to the pier), but some only applies to some people, such as empirically testing the taste of Brussels sprouts, observing that they reliably create a bad taste every time tested, I'm going to call that just as true for me and any of the other truths I mentioned that are true for us all.



Perhaps the above will help to explain what I mean. Each of us can only know what he finds beautiful or tasty by testing. How do we decide what music we like? Empirically. We listen to it and observe the evoked reaction. If it's pleasant for us, and then is so again and again, we have discovered an empiric truth about ourselves, albeit a private or subjective truth.

I recognize the value of making the distinction between private and public truth if for no other reason, to anticipate outcomes. I can expect you to see that eclipse and hear that thunder, but I cannot predict if you will like the Brussels sprouts. So, if I know these things, and we agree to go out and camp under the stars to witness a predicted eclipse, I expect you to be able to see it, but I won't bring Brussels sprouts along, because I can't expect you to like them if I haven't asked.

Your objective truths are likely to be mine as well if we are both adept at determining what is true about the world. What you call your subjective truths (maybe you like Brussels sprouts) are not truth to me, but your report, which I take at face value, but cannot test empirically more than seeing how you react to them

I can't help but include this clip from a comedy I like. In this scene, the heavy set guy is buying take-out chicken for two, a fact he wants to conceal when an acquaintance comes up to him, suspicious that his purchase isn't just for him, because it contains broccoli, which he is thought to despise. Can we call this empiric testing? I'll bet it's repeatable:




I already use the term (scientism) in a descriptive, non-judgmental way. As has already been discussed, the word is used in more than one way. Returning to Wiki:

"Scientism is the view that science is the best or only objective means by which society should determine normative and epistemological values. While the term was originally defined to mean "methods and attitudes typical of or attributed to the natural scientist", some religious scholars (and subsequently many others) adopted it as a pejorative with the meaning "an exaggerated trust in the efficacy of the methods of natural science applied to all areas of investigation (as in philosophy, the social sciences, and the humanities)." The term scientism is often used critically, implying an unwarranted application of science in situations considered not amenable to application of the scientific method or similar scientific standards."

Here are three different usages of the word, the last two disparaging, but applying to different groups of people (anybody that elevates science, and those that misapply it). The first definition certainly applies to any skeptical empiricist. They'll tell you that science is the only method that generates truths about the world, although as you might have just read, I extend that to include the empirical determination of personal or subjective truths. What else is there but guessing? Intuition can be a guide, but ideas arrived at intuitively need to be verified empirically, or they're just guesses as well.

I would challenge the use of the phrases "exaggerated trust in the efficacy of the methods of natural science applied to all areas of investigation (as in philosophy, the social sciences, and the humanities)." It reminds me of when I was in clinical practice, and I would be asked what's excessive alcohol? Two drinks a day? Four? My answer was always pragmatic. Does if cause you to slur speech, fall, lose things, or blackout? Are you driving intoxicated, or having problems with your spouse, friends, or work? How do your liver function tests look? Are you gaining or losing weight? If the answers are all no, I can't call that excessive drinking, even if it is more than some would approve of. I see this as the same. I feel the criticism that trust in science as the only arbiter of truth about the world needs to be backed up with some examples of how this attitude is deficient to not just ignore the claim that there is excessive reliance on science.

Since this subject comes up almost exclusively when theists are criticizing skeptics refusal to believe without empiric support, I generally translate the complaint to, "Why do you think we don't also have truth with our holy books. Your method of determining truth is too strict if it doesn't respect our religious beliefs enough to call them truth, and we claim that right, so your method must be excessive and too limiting."

Well, that's not how I define truth. Just because someone else believes it does not make it truth.

As far as others using the term pejoratively, I'd say that most terms theists use to describe skeptical thinkers are pejorative. What did you mean by atheist-materialist? When coming from a theist, I always read that as "person whose vision is too small, too unimaginative, too colorless, too sanitized." I hear Kirk teasing Spock - "What happened to the rest of you? Where's your soul?"



Nope. I've told you the opposite, in fact. I've told you that I don't care what's "really" out there, and that if I discovered that I was a brain in a vat, nothing changes for me as long as the rules of experience that have worked before I knew that still work.



That never happens, does it? The theists are happy to create strawmen, and feel no obligation to support their allegations.


@Audie , we have a winning post: This man understands the scientism label and embraces it. Please donate dem dollars to your nearest homeless shelter. The Sally Ann would be good if you have one near you, but I'll let you choose.

Paragraph 2 btw, is textbook use of inductive reasoning as per the OP.

Regards
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Sure, your own next sentence will do nicely.
So, having no basis whatever for rejecting this belief, held by some others, you have declared it's both "absurd" and "arrogant" of them to hod it. Which is, in itself, quite absurd and arrogant. Absurd, because you can't offer any of the same support for YOUR opinions as you are demanding of the 'believer' in support of his, and then using the lack of to reject. And arrogant because you are declaring his opinions absurd by the standards of your OWN equally absurd and unsupported opinion.

And even as you EXEMPLIFY the very behavior I alluded to in the OP, you continue to jump up and don demanding examples, and declaring that they don't exist.

The level of willful ignorance, arrogance, and absurdity here are so overwhelming that I honestly don't know how else to respond!

Let me clarify this:

Saying that someone's beliefs count as absurd and arrogant thinking is not scientism.
Please, read again your very own OP.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Sure, your own next sentence will do nicely.So, having no basis whatever for rejecting this belief, held by some others, you have declared it's both "absurd" and "arrogant" of them to hod it. Which is, in itself, quite absurd and arrogant. Absurd, because you can't offer any of the same support for YOUR opinions as you are demanding of the 'believer' in support of his, and then using the lack of to reject.

You don't think humans evolved fairly recently? You don't think the idea that we are the main show, created by a deity is at odds with that fact? You don't think it is arrogant to believe humans are why a deity created every other living thing? I have encountered religious apologists who asserted they believed precisely that, though of course I'm not saying all theists believe the same.

And arrogant because you are declaring his opinions absurd by the standards of your OWN equally absurd and unsupported opinion.

You think species evolution is my own unsupported opinion? Really?

And even as you EXEMPLIFY the very behavior I alluded to in the OP, you continue to jump up and don demanding examples, and declaring that they don't exist.

Jumping up and down? Nice touch of hyperbole there. However one cannot help but notice you started the thread, and made the accusation before I'd posted any of that, prescience? Or do you think a post ad hoc justification is going to fool anyone?

The level of willful ignorance, arrogance, and absurdity here are so overwhelming that I honestly don't know how else to respond!

Yes that post does sound as if the writer were overwhelmed, however you seem to be strapping your horse to the back of your cart by choosing a post that came after you started the thread, and made the accusation. ;)
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Scientism is the view that science is the best or only objective means by which society should determine normative and epistemological values.​
Now, when you look at that, and in particular, the word "objective," I wonder how anyone might apply that to the many, many threads in these forums that begin: "Does God want..." or "Does God hate..." or "Is God's intention to...". How would one go about finding anything to say objectively about the resurrection as the path to salvation, or faith in Christ as the only path to eternal life?

Or about "spirituality" or many other things? This is what most of us who are accused of "scientism" are thinking about. It is one thing to say that "gravity is true, because we can demonstrate it," and quite another to say that "astral projection is true." We would say, "well, if astral projection is true, it would seem that there would be some way to demonstrate that." Then we set up experiments and find...well, nothing much, so far.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Let me clarify this:

Saying that someone's beliefs count as absurd and arrogant thinking is not scientism.
Please, read again your very own OP.

Well, the standard is. To demand evidence by science, but don't live up to it yourself and then reject everybody else who doesn't live up to the standard you don't live up to yourself.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Now, when you look at that, and in particular, the word "objective," I wonder how anyone might apply that to the many, many threads in these forums that begin: "Does God want..." or "Does God hate..." or "Is God's intention to...". How would one go about finding anything to say objectively about the resurrection as the path to salvation, or faith in Christ as the only path to eternal life?

Or about "spirituality" or many other things? This is what most of us who are accused of "scientism" are thinking about. It is one thing to say that "gravity is true, because we can demonstrate it," and quite another to say that "astral projection is true." We would say, "well, if astral projection is true, it would seem that there would be some way to demonstrate that." Then we set up experiments and find...well, nothing much, so far.

Science is not about truth as I was taught it.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I do think science is the best means. :)
The rest just seems an attempt to conflate science and faith.
I'm inclined to agree. Someone will be claiming there is scientific evidence that supports their particular theistic belief in a minute, that's the real irony.

When you respond to generic claims theists of one particular stripe or other leap on it as facile, then when you respond specifically all the ones who don't share that notion of a deity leap on it.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Where did he lay out that standard on that post?

Well, sorry. He did it here in another post.
...

Well there is logic, and philosophy, but I don't believe it is possible to argue something into existence. So I'd need some objective evidence to support the claim, obviously specific to the context. You've heard the expression extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. However this sounds like you're asking me to accept that something exists beyond the material physical universe, and whilst I cannot and do not claim it does not exist, as it sounds like an unfalsifiable claim, I would have to disbelieve the claim unless something was offered that was more than a bare subjective assertion. Again not just for god claims, though of course some claims would be of a nature that accepting them wouldn't be particularly significant, if you claimed you owned a dog, I'd be unlikely to dispute it, for example, with or without any evidence.

Take the sentence itself and now express it in only material physical terms for its meaning of all the words: "However this sounds like you're asking me to accept that something exists beyond the material physical universe,..."

He can't, because there is no for all of the world for all aspects an universel material physical theory. He is using a double standard for in the end to demand science for all of the world but can't do it himself.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I think we can objectively define reality. We can measure it and quantify it fairly easily.
Measurements are not objective. Neither are the phenomenological parameters and relationships within or between which we are choosing to 'measure'. All these are subject to the limitations and mechanics of human cognitive experience/perception. They are by both practice and definition; subjective. Not objective.
I'll agree we can't use subjective experience to define reality.
All of our experiences of reality are subjective because WE ARE THE SUBJECTS doing the experiencing and extrapolating our conceptions of "reality" from those limited experiences. "Objective reality" is a mythical existential condition that we must presume to exist apart and beyond our own subjective cognitive reach.
Not because it is not a physical process but because each brain is a unique process. However our experience is part reality and partly a process that is subjective to our individual brains. It is however possible to identify where reality ends and subjectivity begins.
The important thing to understand, here, is that our individual subjective conceptualized realities ARE REAL. They really exist. Just as the shadow of a tree on the ground is as real as the tree that helps generate it. Our individual concepts of reality may not exactly reflect or embody the whole of reality, itself, but they are as real and as much a part of reality, as reality, itself. And this is why the "scientism" paradigm is so wrong. It asserts that this mythical "objective reality" is the only "real, reality" (obtainable exclusively through the empirical methodology of science), and that our subjective conceptualizations of reality are just whimsical, perverted shadows being generated in our minds, pretending to be true, but are of no import until validated by this mythical "objectivism".
So I guess there is a derogatory meaning of scientism which I didn't catch in the OP. One of belief in the method of science without verification. IOW taking the claims of science on faith.
We humans take an make all claims on faith, ultimately. The difference is what we are placing that faith in. The 'scientism' crowd place their faith in a very grandiose interpretation of the scientific method; pretty much exclusively. Which is not at all a very 'scientific' thing to do, even as they proclaim from the rooftops how 'scientific' they are being, and how superior their 'scientific'' methodology is compared to everyone else's.
Kind of defeats the idea of science but I suppose someone might be guilty of this.
Since I'm usually one to defend materialism I might be perceived as being guilty of this.
However, many of the claims made by science, theories, I don't believe.

I may see science as the only trustworthy way of determining what is real, but I believe any claims made by anyone ought to be verified to the best of one's ability before being accepted.
Keep in mind that a great many scientists disparage 'scientism' because they, themselves, understand that science is a limited means of investigating reality (physicality), and an even more limited means of determining 'truth'.
 
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mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I'm inclined to agree. Someone will be claiming there is scientific evidence that supports their particular theistic belief in a minute, that's the real irony.

When you respond to generic claims theists of one particular stripe or other leap on it as facile, then when you respond specifically all the ones who don't share that notion of a deity leap on it.

I don't care that you subjectively agree. I demand it in pure material physical terms or you are using a double standard.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
He has already given one.
Follow the link: "Scientism" on Wikipedia ...
That's a claim on Wikipedia not an example on here of the many atheists he claimed were guilty of scientism. The only post he's offered so far was posted in this thread after he'd made the accusation, and didn't remotely qualify as scientism. Unless you think accepting a scientific fact as well established as species evolution qualifies. In which case I'd have to accept the charge.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
That's a claim on Wikipedia not an example on here of the many atheists he claimed were guilty of scientism. The only post he's offered so far was posted in this thread after he'd made the accusation, and didn't remotely qualify as scientism. Unless you think accepting a scientific fact as well established as species evolution qualifies. In which case I'd have to accept the charge.

Yeah, you made an even better one here:
"Scientism" on Wikipedia ...
Follow the link.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
We humans take an make all claims on faith, ultimately.

Like the earth not being flat?

It seems to you scientises is accepting that there are any objective facts established by the method at all. It wasn't faith made your post appear on my laptop screen though was it, and the technology works because the objective scientific knowledge that created is not influenced by subjective opinion or feelings.

I assume you go the doctor when you're ill? Does he need to have any medical training, or will his bare opinion or gut feeling be sufficient?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Like the earth not being flat?

It seems to you scientises is accepting that there are any objective facts established by the method at all. It wasn't faith made your post appear on my laptop screen though was it, and the technology works because the objective scientific knowledge that created is not influenced by subjective opinion or feelings.

I assume you go the doctor when you're ill? Does he need to have any medical training, or will his bare opinion or gut feeling be sufficient?

No, that the universe is material physical, If you can show that, there is a Nobel Prize waiting for you.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I don't care that you subjectively agree. I demand it in pure material physical terms or you are using a double standard.

Did you actually read his post? I have no idea what that second sentence means, wharf you demanding, and what does pure material physical terms even mean? What double standard?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Did you actually read his post? I have no idea what that second sentence means, wharf you demanding, and what does pure material physical terms even mean? What double standard?

Express all of your post in pure material physical terms and not everyday words.
 
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