Scientists actually do know everything about the universe.

[godnotgod]

What I bolded shows your true bias. I hear that sort of talk from Eastern types, it has nothing to do with materialism, thats just a label. I keep telling you that science has already shown what material reality is all about. It is no coincidence these folks believe as they do without having to be any particular religion. The simple gold foil experiments showed us that we should be falling through the floor because we are truly more empty space than anything, thats what "material" reality shows us, but saying material or non-material makes no difference. Call it a frequency if you want, thats what we are detecting, frequencies. Can any of those peeps tell us what the frequencies are really made of, can any religion tell us, I highly doubt it.

You are confusing the concept of materialism with 'material' reality, which, as you said, is mostly empty space. Regardless, the 'material' scientist has materiality hard-wired into his brain. It takes a radical transformation of consciousness for awakening to occur, and in which the 'material' world is seen as empty of inherent nature, IOW, an illusion. Whether ordinary man, mystic, or scientist, it is at this point that the cosmic game of Hide and Seek goes from the Hide phase to the Seek phase, which is further compounded by the fact that, That which one is seeking, is what is causing one to seek.

Really, though, what we understand to be particles, are actually disturbances in the Unified Field. IOW, particles are all about the field which generates them. They don't exist in and of themselves, hence, virtual particles with virtual mass, and what Hindusm sees as maya. So now we have Field Theory, and scientists are going down another level, beyond the particle. It is this Unified Field which mystics have called 'Brahman', 'the Ground of All Being', The Source, Pure Consciousness, and which physicist John Hagelin calls 'Pure Abstract Intelligence'. This is where all Universes arise from.

 

[godnotgod]

You're right, though I think in this case it is more a new-age bias. There is a lot of anti-science rhetoric, though ironically a dependence on pseudo-science. Go figure!

You are perceiving the objection to an over-importance of science as 'anti-science'. Mystics are not anti-science; they fully accept science, but not as the premier source of knowledge. The problem is that science, while an extremely useful tool for the practical application of technology in medicine and other fields (and unfortunately for things like warfare and over-exploitation of the environment) puts the cart ahead of the horse in that it is out of context to Reality. When Reality is apprehended first, then the findings of science can be seen in the correct light, which is that of the greater Reality itsefl, and not the other way around, which is how science has it.

But the reason a lot of people are sick and tired of science is because it eviscerates Reality of its life and does not nourish the soul. That is why a trend has been to turn away from traditional religion and science and toward the feminine practices which nourish man's soul, such as Zen, Wicca, Yoga, mystical Taoism, Sufism, etc.

 

[godnotgod]

What are you distinguishing is the difference between mind and consciousness? You saying mind is in neither yet is in both space and time. I don't see a difference.

Consciousness is how you see, without thought; Mind is the agent of thought, via consciousness. When mind ceases its activity, there is always consciousness present throughout. Stop your mind, so you can see, instead of merely thinking.

Who cares, religion and mysticism can't tell us what the nature of reality is, certainly science is the best tool we have to find out such a thing. Just spouting things like its spiritual or non-material doesn't say anything.

Again, anyone with an elementary understanding can see the nature of reality beyond our limited perception. We can use simple observation, we observe reality to find what it is.

Oh? So what is it?

Matter trapped in space-time, regardless if time is eternal, we are trapped at a certain reference point.

But who, or what, is it that knows that, and how will you free yourself?

 

[godnotgod]

I notice much the same with Chopra, who indulges in childish point-scoring and arrogantly interrupts others.

Perhaps it is a new-age thing?

No, just the awakened mind calling a spade a spade.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Is the universe finite or infinite? It's a mind-boggling question!

http://www.universetoday.com/119553/is-the-universe-finite-or-infinite/

 

[Rick O'Shez]

No, just the awakened mind calling a spade a spade.

No, more like an arrogant and immature character posing as a guru, preying on the gullible.

 

[godnotgod]

No, more like an arrogant and immature character posing as a guru, preying on the gullible.

No, more like a true teacher who's helped thousands toward a happier life, as they themselves have testified to. a full 5 star rating on tripadvisor; 4.5 star rating on facebook, and 4.0 on yelp.

http://www.chopra.com/

Randomly chosen Yelp review:

"Just completed a 3 day program and look forward to going back in March for their Perfect Health program. What a wonderful and authentic group of people to share space with."

https://www.yelp.com/biz/chopra-center-for-wellbeing-carlsbad

While there are some negative reviews, they are mostly very specific ones such as disapointments with coupons and other smaller, though still significant issues.

I really think you would have a complete turnaround of mind if you were to go there yourself for a 3 day program to rid yourself of your entrenched prejudices, which will eventually hurt you.

 

[idav]

Of course you do, because you just don't know.

Excuse me but I normally don't have as much problem with the people you quote, just your interpretational rhetoric.

 

[idav]

You are confusing the concept of materialism with 'material' reality, which, as you said, is mostly empty space. Regardless, the 'material' scientist has materiality hard-wired into his brain. It takes a radical transformation of consciousness for awakening to occur, and in which the 'material' world is seen as empty of inherent nature, IOW, an illusion. Whether ordinary man, mystic, or scientist, it is at this point that the cosmic game of Hide and Seek goes from the Hide phase to the Seek phase, which is further compounded by the fact that, That which one is seeking, is what is causing one to seek.

Really, though, what we understand to be particles, are actually disturbances in the Unified Field. IOW, particles are all about the field which generates them. They don't exist in and of themselves, hence, virtual particles with virtual mass, and what Hindusm sees as maya. So now we have Field Theory, and scientists are going down another level, beyond the particle. It is this Unified Field which mystics have called 'Brahman', 'the Ground of All Being', The Source, Pure Consciousness, and which physicist John Hagelin calls 'Pure Abstract Intelligence'. This is where all Universes arise from.

Your confusing feel good meditational feelings with knowledge in god, or whatever you want to call it, pure consciousness. You don't have knowledge of this pure consciousness or you would be able to use science to back it up, like the others you quote do. Your regurgitating without full understanding, at least thats how it seems to me.

 

[jonathan180iq]

No, more like a true teacher who's helped thousands toward a happier life, as they themselves have testified to. a full 5 star rating on tripadvisor; 4.5 star rating on facebook, and 4.0 on yelp.

http://www.chopra.com/

Randomly chosen Yelp review:

"Just completed a 3 day program and look forward to going back in March for their Perfect Health program. What a wonderful and authentic group of people to share space with."

https://www.yelp.com/biz/chopra-center-for-wellbeing-carlsbad

While there are some negative reviews, they are mostly very specific ones such as disapointments with coupons and other smaller, though still significant issues.

I really think you would have a complete turnaround of mind if you were to go there yourself for a 3 day program to rid yourself of your entrenched prejudices, which will eventually hurt you.

Junk food tastes good - but junk food is bad for you.

Most people are idiots.

 

[godnotgod]

Excuse me but I normally don't have as much problem with the people you quote, just your interpretational rhetoric.

Excuse me, but I showed you as clear as day how you misrepresented Planck's quote. You deliberately left out the most important part of his quote! Do you want me to post it again, with running commentary to prove you wrong? I did not 'interpret' anything he said; are you blind?

The reason you normally don't have a problem with those I've quoted is because you are conditioned to think in the currently accepted paradigm, which causes you to believe what they say in accordance with it. So YOU are the one twisting things around. Once brought under the light of scrutiny, it becomes clear that they are saying something that does not synch with your conceptual framework.

 

[godnotgod]

Your confusing feel good meditational feelings with knowledge in god, or whatever you want to call it, pure consciousness. You don't have knowledge of this pure consciousness or you would be able to use science to back it up, like the others you quote do. Your regurgitating without full understanding, at least thats how it seems to me.

idav, you're way off base here, and out of your league, your nose pressed up against the window pane, looking from the outside in. Good feelings are a natural product of meditation, and yes, some instructions even are just for that purpose. But if you had been really paying attention to what I've said, you would have noted that that is not the focus here, but that of, and I quote mystelf, 'a radical transformation of consciousness'. I never mentioned 'god'. I am not talking about belief, doctrine, religion, or theism. Clear? On what basis do you say I have no knowledge of pure consciousness*? Again, I told you: higher consciousness is beyond the phenomenal world and beyond Logic, Reason, and Analysis; there is NO WAY this experience can be proven as real by such means. You have ignored everything I've said about it, and have retreated into your own little conceptual framework because you fail to understand. And that is what I said: you don't give credibility to it not because you can't prove it, but because you have not experienced it, and I understand that. But don't make assumptions via your own thinking about something you don't know about.

*Pure: clear

 

[godnotgod]

Junk food tastes good - but junk food is bad for you.

Most people are idiots.

I see. So Chopra's people are just a bunch of zombies, mentally controlled by a charlatan. Sir, we are talking about thousands and thousands of people who have reintegrated back into society after practising in his programs. Yoga and organic food creates mind controlled idiots?

You're just talking off the top of your head, aren't you?

 

[idav]

idav, you're way off base here, and out of your league, your nose pressed up against the window pane, looking from the outside in. Good feelings are a natural product of meditation, and yes, some instructions even are just for that purpose. But if you had been really paying attention to what I've said, you would have noted that that is not the focus here, but that of, and I quote mystelf, 'a radical transformation of consciousness'. I never mentioned 'god'. I am not talking about belief, doctrine, religion, or theism. Clear? On what basis do you say I have no knowledge of pure consciousness*? Again, I told you: higher consciousness is beyond the phenomenal world and beyond Logic, Reason, and Analysis; there is NO WAY this experience can be proven as real by such means. You have ignored everything I've said about it, and have retreated into your own little conceptual framework because you fail to understand. And that is what I said: you don't give credibility to it not because you can't prove it, but because you have not experienced it, and I understand that. But don't make assumptions via your own thinking about something you don't know about.

*Pure: clear

I'm not ignoring everything, your just ignoring my reconciliations. I am not like some the atheists you talk with, I'm theist and have in fact experienced what your describing and also believe that reality has some sort of awareness, however that's a far cry from claiming knowledge that this default awareness exists, and claiming knowledge that a subjective meditative experience somehow gives you credibility to claim such knowledge is unfounded. You assume a lot of me but your assumptions of me also are unfounded.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Your confusing feel good meditational feelings with knowledge in god, or whatever you want to call it, pure consciousness.

That is correct. People experience altered states of mind/consciousness, and interpret them in different ways. You can read all kinds of things into these subjective experiences, and generally the way people interpret them is shaped by existing preconceptions and assumptions. So for example a Buddhist might experience a particular meditative state and call it jhana, while a Christian mystic might experience something very similar and call it "God". I used to do "silent worship" with the Quakers, and have seen this for myself.

Meanwhile a new-ager might experience something similar and call it "Cosmic Consciousness" or whatever. "Cosmic Consciousness" is really a sort of new-age God-substitute, though having more in common with Hindu belief.

In any case, while subjective "mystical" experiences can be a useful source of personal insight, they are certainly not a valid basis for making claims about the ontology of the cosmos. They are not a valid basis for claiming that the big bang was an "event in consciousness", or claiming that space-time is merely a concept, or whatever.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

So Chopra's people are just a bunch of zombies, mentally controlled by a charlatan.

"Zombies" is unkind, but "charlatan" is correct.

 

[idav]

Excuse me, but I showed you as clear as day how you misrepresented Planck's quote. You deliberately left out the most important part of his quote! Do you want me to post it again, with running commentary to prove you wrong? I did not 'interpret' anything he said; are you blind?

The reason you normally don't have a problem with those I've quoted is because you are conditioned to think in the currently accepted paradigm, which causes you to believe what they say in accordance with it. So YOU are the one twisting things around. Once brought under the light of scrutiny, it becomes clear that they are saying something that does not synch with your conceptual framework.

Your saying all this without even realizing how much I agree with you. I simply ask for evidence if something is said in a way that is more preaching than debating. Arguments should be based on a solid foundation or its pure conjecture. What I won't do is make your arguments for you, but even when I present evidence your so bent on me being wrong you miss my points and as such do a disservice to expanding spiritual understanding.

 

[idav]

You're right, it is a straw-man, though I think in this case it is more a new-age bias. In the new-age religion there is a lot of anti-science rhetoric, though ironically a fascination with pseudo-science. Go figure!

I think that is the case exactly. I'm theist afterall but as soon as I try and use reason and science I get called things like materialist and such. I think a lot of the bias comes from proponents of mind being the primary substance everything stems from. This really isn't that different from pantheists like Spinoza who believed mind is part of what everything comes from but even then I receive strong disagreement for not thinking the whole thing is dualistic instead of monistic. I mean I love speculating as much as the rest of us but one of my peeves is people who say things like, I know god exists, or I know the cosmos are conscious, without any sort of back up or evidence other than personal un-testable experiences. It may very well be true but I don't see why people should be hurt when asking for some evidence.

 

[godnotgod]

"Zombies" is unkind, but "charlatan" is correct.

This charlatan has a lot of happy people on his side. But they're all being fooled, aren't they?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

This charlatan has a lot of happy people on his side. But they're all being fooled, aren't they?

Yes, they are. Like I said, you might do better preaching this stuff on a new-age forum.