And why would we define it that way?
How about having growth, metabolism, homeostasis, reproduction, sensitivity, and motility?
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Scientists create living eating and growing machines...
- Thread starter Dell
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And why would we define it that way?
How about having growth, metabolism, homeostasis, reproduction, sensitivity, and motility?
If time had a beginning, there was no 'before'. Remember that time is part of the universe, so if the universe had a beginning, so did time.
It's not actually a "machine" but a "biological construct." It's using layman's terms to make more of an impact / let people understand the implications better.
It has no intelligence whatsoever, AI or otherwise. It's a form of life though. Intelligence is NOT normally used as a qualifier for life, but rather, ongoing spontaneous chemical reactions are. Bacteria are alive for example. The only real "philosophical" discussion regarding what it means to be life could be summed up two just two opposing viewpoints: That which accepts findings of science, or that which wants to put humans on a special pedestal.
Living machine in itself is not an oxymoron of any kind. This is your incredulity speaking. It sounds silly, sure. But it's a valid proposition: we could very well SKIP an actual "machine" and just go STRAIGHT for a biological construct. Which has HUGE implications for the fields of robotics and AI as well.
Answer me this: If you were to construct a human out of biological, standard human parts, would it be a human or a robot? Or both? Remember that biomechanics is pretty much just actual mechanics applied to biologicals.
You don't actually understand what they mean with artificial intelligence. It's not something that's "coded" or "programmed." Those are at best SIMULATIONS of AI. You even said yourself that computer programs mimic human intelligence. They aren't called artificial because they mimic human intelligence, but because they are artificial, I.E fabricated. It would, in order to actually qualify as artificial intelligence, be both *actual* intelligence(which is actually rather difficult to quantify) AND artificial. You're thinking way too simplistically here.
TLDR: You're using your personal incredulity as a way to dismiss concepts. That's not healthy or very intelligent.
/E: My personal view is that if i were to meet a machine entirely indistinguishable from actual life, i'd call it alive. That simple.
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Nobody's saying nothing did it. It just happened. The 'cause' if one even exists, is unknown.
Yes, verified. Relativity and quantum mechanics are real. The modern technology you use every day is based on them.
As does Christian theology?
What initiated the expansion of the singularity that gave rise to the universe is unknown. It's what occurred after creation that we're disputing.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Cleary
God is sovereign and in control <><
Indeed God did create the laws of the Universe ...
(BIG BANG !!!!!) all eons = time / force / action / space and matter ....
In the beginning (time) God (force) created (action) the Heavens (space) and the Earth (matter) ..... KA-POWee !!!!!!!
from absolutely nothing .... and will, in the end, return it to nothing ...
then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it ..
from whose presence earth and heaven fled away .. and no place was found for them .... Rev 20:11 <><
(BIG BANG !!!!!) all eons = time / force / action / space and matter ....
In the beginning (time) God (force) created (action) the Heavens (space) and the Earth (matter) ..... KA-POWee !!!!!!!
from absolutely nothing .... and will, in the end, return it to nothing ...
then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it ..
from whose presence earth and heaven fled away .. and no place was found for them .... Rev 20:11 <><
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SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Nobody says either of those things.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
We all have opinions even with a God. What's your point?
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Cleary
God is sovereign and in control <><
Sorry, SkepticThinker ... but there will never be enough 'evidence' for one whom God (for whatever reason) has not called
For those whom he (God) foreknew ..
he also predestined to become conformed to the image of his Son ..
so that he would be the firstborn among many brethren
and these whom he predestined .. he also called .. and these whom he called ..
he also justified .. and these whom he justified ..
he also glorified .... Romans 8:29-30 <><
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SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Do you mean Lawrence Krauss?"
You should read his book, "A Universe From Nothing: Why There is Something Rather Than Nothing," or listen to him explain what he means by "nothing" because as another poster has been trying to point out to you, Krauss' definition of "nothing" doesn't quite match up with yours.
This is from an interview Krauss did with NPR:
"And we don't yet know the true origin of life, but we think we'll understand it by chemistry, and what we're discovering is that in fact physics has suggested that maybe the same is true for the whole universe, that we don't need a creator.
And I guess most importantly that the question why is there something rather than nothing is really a scientific question, not a religious or philosophical question, because both nothing and something are scientific concepts, and our discoveries over the past 30 years have completely changed what we mean by nothing.
In particular, nothing is unstable. Nothing can create something all the time due to the laws of quantum mechanics, and it's - it's fascinatingly interesting. And what I wanted to do was use the hook of this question, which I think as I say has provoked religious people, as well as scientists, to encourage people to try and understand the amazing universe that we actually live in.
........
How did the idea - how did - you said that the physics has changed, what we know about the universe has changed so much, dramatically over the last few years, especially the idea that what we think of empty space is really not empty, correct?
KRAUSS: That's exactly right. Empty space is a boiling, bubbling brew of virtual particles that pop in and out of existence in a time scale so short that you can't even measure them. Now, that sounds of course like counting angels on the head of a pin; if you can't measure them, then it doesn't sound like it's science, but in fact you can't measure them directly.
But we can measure their effects indirectly. These particles that are popping in and out of existence actually affect the properties of atoms and nuclei and actually are responsible for most of the mass inside your body. And in fact, really one of the things that motivated this book was the most profound discovery in recent times, and you even alluded to it in the last segment, the discovery that most of the energy of the universe actually resides in empty space.
You take space, get rid of all the particles, all the radiation, and it actually carries energy, and that notion that in fact empty space - once you allow gravity into the game, what seems impossible is possible. It sounds like it would violate the conservation of energy for you to start with nothing and end up with lots of stuff, but the great thing about gravity is it's a little trickier.
Gravity allows positive energy and negative energy, and out of nothing you can create positive energy particles, and as long as a gravitational attraction produces enough negative energy, the sum of their energy can be zero. And in fact when we look out at the universe and try and measure its total energy, we come up with zero.
I like to think of it as the difference between, say, a savvy stockbroker and an embezzler. The savvy stockbroker will buy stocks on margin with more money than they have, and as long as they get that money back in there before anyone notices, and in fact if the stocks go up, they end with money where they didn't have any before, whereas the embezzler, of course, is discovered.
Well, the universe is a savvy stockbroker. It can borrow energy, and if there's no gravity, it gets rid of it back before anyone notices. But if gravity is there, it can actually create stuff where there was none before. And you can actually create enough stuff to account for everything we see in the universe.
But, you know, it's more than that because some people would say, and I've had this discussion with theologians and others, well, you know, just empty space isn't nothing. You know, there's space. How did the space get there? But the amazing thing is, once you apply in fact quantum mechanics to gravity, as you were beginning to allude again in the last segment, then it's possible, in fact it's implied, that space itself can be created where there was nothing before, that literally whole universes can pop out of nothing by the laws of quantum mechanics.
And in fact the question why is there something rather than nothing then becomes sort of trite because nothing is unstable. It will always produce something. The more interesting or surprising question might be why is there nothing. But of course if we ask that question, well, we wouldn't be here if that was true."
Lawrence Krauss On 'A Universe From Nothing'
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SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
More empty claims. Yay.
Please don't try with this nonsense. I'm a person who believes things based on evidence. If there were good evidence for god(s) I would have to accept it. Do you have any?
Eyewitness account of creation? Please, don't make me laugh.
Onc again a Bible quote. Why should we believe what the Bible has to say? Why will there never be enough evidence to convince a skeptic? Doesn't that seem just a bit too convenient for those who derive their power from believers?
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Well, quite true: In the Quantum Realm? We see particle-pairs popping into existence, and then? Popping back out again. Apparently, something from "nothing".
Of course-- there really is no such thing as "nothing" except in the Bible.
And yes, it does: "the world was without form and void" -- that is literally nothing.
I guess we found yet another Bible-Believer who doesn't actually believe what is written.
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Indeed God did create the laws of the Universe ...
(BIG BANG !!!!!) all eons = time / force / action / space and matter ....
In the beginning (time) God (force) created (action) the Heavens (space) and the Earth (matter) ..... KA-POWee !!!!!!!
from absolutely nothing .... and will, in the end, return it to nothing ...
then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it ..
from whose presence earth and heaven fled away .. and no place was found for them .... Rev 20:11 <><
Oh! I have links TOO-- only MINE are based on Scientific Discovery-- not faith and gullibility.
1) https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/15-answers-to-creationist/
2) Lines of evidence: The science of evolution
3) http://io9.gizmodo.com/8-scientific-discoveries-that-prove-evolution-is-real-1729902558
4) Human Evolution Evidence
5) How Did Multicellular Life Evolve? - Astrobiology Magazine
6) TalkOrigins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution Controversy
7) Evolution
8) 101 Reasons Why Evolution is True | ideonexus.com
9) http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence
10) http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/…/topicbrowse2.php…
11) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent
12) http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/03/0308_060308_evolution.html
13) http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/home.php
14) http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_01
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Oh. My. That's kind of sick, don't you think? You believe in a deliberately malicious and evil god, who willfully withholds the needed evidence, so that later this same god can employ TORTURE?
Not just plain old torture either, but infinite torture?
That is Infinitely Evil.
The following explains my point even better:
Cleary
God is sovereign and in control <><
More empty claims. Yay.
You should actually try watching the video ... you might actually learn something <><
1. all the science in the world thrown at the issue of Creation can conclude nothing
any more than Science can explain someone being raised from the dead .. or parting the Red Sea
Indeed ... these people proclaiming themselves to be wise ... they have become fools
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Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Learn something? How not to think? How to ignore 100% of modern biology, physics, chemistry and pretty much every other modern scientific discovery?
Preaching is still preaching. And still utterly without evidence of any note.
... or value.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
So, no. You don't have any evidence. If you did, you would have cited it.
tas8831
Well-Known Member
If I link to a video showing the opposite, will YOU watch it and believe and learn something?
Why do you have to rely on a video? just because something convinced you of something does not mean everyone is as gullible.
The theist needs to perform / demonstrate / display how life arrived from non-life ie: matter alone < no can do < the challenge still stands
NO CAN DO
Creationists fail.