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Scientists say...

anotherneil

Well-Known Member
Scientists say that, eh?

Maybe some scientists say that (and others say "steady-state model" of the universe).

The guy who came up with the Big Bang Theory about a century ago (Georges Lemaître) was a scientist, but he was also a priest, which means there's possibly a bias towards the religious belief of a beginning.

I think this idea that the universe has a beginning is nonsense, at least in the sense of time as we know it in a scientific context (as one of the most fundamental dimensions in physics along with mass and length).

Two scientists (Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson) discovered cosmic microwave background radiation about half a century ago, and they were awarded the Nobel Prize in physics for it; they also used their discovery to endorse the Big Bang Theory. However, there are at least two problems with this; the first is that people apparently associate the Nobel Prize that they were awarded with both the discovery and the endorsement (from what I understand, it was only for the discovery, not the endorsement) and use this perception to grant credibility to the Big Bang Theory; the second is that, in general, being awarded a prize (such as the Nobel Prize) is not science, just essentially something like a bribe.

To me, the reason the Big Bang Theory somewhat appears to be scientifically sound or reasonable is because there may be at least two possible explanations for cosmic microwave background radiation redshift; one of them can sort of be interpreted as a "big bang" & a beginning to the universe (which I think is wrong), and the other may involve redshift simply being the result of energy loss (of photons traveling their limits in distance through space across many galaxies); this paper seems to support the latter: Dispersive Extinction Theory of Redshift - Ling Jun Wang
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
What evidence?


From the 1940s to the 1960s, the astrophysical community was divided between supporters of the Big Bang theory and supporters of the steady-state theory. The steady-state model is now rejected by most cosmologists, astrophysicists, and astronomers. The observational evidence points to a hot Big Bang cosmology with a finite age of the universe, which the steady-state model does not predict. -- Steady-state model - Wikipedia

There are numerous books by cosmologists now available, btw.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member

From the 1940s to the 1960s, the astrophysical community was divided between supporters of the Big Bang theory and supporters of the steady-state theory. The steady-state model is now rejected by most cosmologists, astrophysicists, and astronomers. The observational evidence points to a hot Big Bang cosmology with a finite age of the universe, which the steady-state model does not predict. -- Steady-state model - Wikipedia

There are numerous books by cosmologists now available, btw.
I remember back in junior high (now "middle school")
the steady state theory being taught as just one of
the possibilities under consideration.
 

anotherneil

Well-Known Member

From the 1940s to the 1960s, the astrophysical community was divided between supporters of the Big Bang theory and supporters of the steady-state theory. The steady-state model is now rejected by most cosmologists, astrophysicists, and astronomers. The observational evidence points to a hot Big Bang cosmology with a finite age of the universe, which the steady-state model does not predict. -- Steady-state model - Wikipedia

There are numerous books by cosmologists now available, btw.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist

That is outdated and now known to not be correct.
 

anotherneil

Well-Known Member
I did, so if you have nothing more to offer, let's just move on.
Oh, come on -saying that it's not correct is not the same as showing that it's not correct.

I'm ok with moving on if you capitulate.

Here's what's wrong with the BBT:
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Did Stephen Hawking ever figure out what made the universe? Or what made gravity? He spent an awful lot of time pondering over these things.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Well the current sciences of evolution do not consider mutations random except for the timing of the event, and whether one event is beneficial, neutral or harmful. Mutations only determine the genetic diversity in populations necessary for natural selection,
So can scientists see or tell what, when and how mutations occurred? And why they might have lasted, if these supposed mutations lasted? Can they tell when a mutation was not beneficial? Probably not, since that would not theoretically let those organisms survive in the short or long run.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
So can scientists see or tell what, when and how mutations occurred? And why they might have lasted, if these supposed mutations lasted? Can they tell when a mutation was not beneficial? Probably not, since that would not theoretically let those organisms survive in the short or long run.
Yes to all of the above. You need to do your homework.

You are still clueless as to what scientists say . . .
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Did Stephen Hawking ever figure out what made the universe? Or what made gravity?
He did not try to do this. These are philosophical questions, As far as the work and conclusions pur physical existence which contains our universe is "boundless without beginning or end.

Theists "believe" God Created (made?) the Natural Laws and our physical existence, Atheists and other philosophical Naturalists believe is simply exists without Gods. Science only studies and researches the physical nature of our physical existence, and cannot falsify any philosophical/theological questions beyond this.

He spent an awful lot of time pondering over these things.
No, he did no such thing,
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Oh, come on -saying that it's not correct is not the same as showing that it's not correct.

I'm ok with moving on if you capitulate.

Here's what's wrong with the BBT:
You are arguing beyond the current limits of science to 'argue from ignorance' as to what you believe.

This reference does NOT conclude what is wrong with the BBT.It addresses the questions concerning what we know and donot know about the BBT. Yes, there are unanswered questions concerning the origins of the universe, but the various theories concerning the BBT and cyclic universes are based on sound science.

Could you present a possible alternative explanation based on science?
 
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Ajax

Active Member
I'm basically speaking about what Moses wrote, not other beliefs.
Moses, if existed, wrote nothing. The modern scholarly consensus rejects Mosaic authorship, and affirms that the Torah has multiple authors and that its composition took place over centuries. The probable date is between 450–350 BC, although others argue for a Hellenistic dating (333–164 BC) on the basis that the Elephantine papyri, the records of a Jewish colony in Egypt dating from the last quarter of the 5th century BC, make no reference to a written Torah, the Exodus, or to any other biblical event, though it does mention the festival of Passover.
 

anotherneil

Well-Known Member
You are arguing beyond the current limits of science to 'argue from ignorance' as to what you believe.
What argument are you referring to? I'm not talking about something that I do believe, I'm talking about something that I do not believe, and I have explained why.

This reference does NOT conclude what is wrong with the BBT.It addresses the questions concerning what we know and donot know about the BBT.
I'm not concerned with such nitpicky comments.

Yes, there are unanswered questions concerning the origins of the universe, but the various theories concerning the BBT and cyclic universes are based on sound science.
I myself don't have questions about the origins of the universe, as that seems to assume that there is a beginning to the universe, and I don't subscribe to such an assumption.

The expression "sound science" is just something that's politically charged. Actual science is about falsifiable propositions; there's just science and stuff that is not science - such as science fiction and religion. The word "sound" is used to describe arguments that are both valid and factually true. Politics and religion are about coercing or compelling people to believe things; science, on the other hand, is about showing something and letting people conclude for themselves what it means.

I don't accept the claim that the cosmic microwave background radiation redshift is the result of a Doppler effect of an expanding universe, nor do I see any reason for having to accept it, since it could possibly be explained as being the result of energy loss, and in general there's a lack of anything that supports that redshift sufficiently and necessarily implies an expanding universe or a beginning to the universe.

There is no scientific prerequisite to prove or defend that the redshift is in fact energy loss in order to not accept that it's a Doppler effect.

Could you present a possible alternative explanation based on science?
I already did in this post: Scientists say...
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
He did not try to do this. These are philosophical questions, As far as the work and conclusions pur physical existence which contains our universe is "boundless without beginning or end.

Theists "believe" God Created (made?) the Natural Laws and our physical existence, Atheists and other philosophical Naturalists believe is simply exists without Gods. Science only studies and researches the physical nature of our physical existence, and cannot falsify any philosophical/theological questions beyond this.


No, he did no such thing,
You don't think so, heh?
 
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