Scottish Independence

[kai]

I've chatted with SNP members who are adament that Scotland subsidises the rest of the UK. I've also read articles that suggest it's a very complicated formula, and that the economic strength of an independent Scotland is impossible to determine until it happens. To be honest they ( the SNP members)would wouldnt they?

We are a fairly developed and educated nation on par with the other small EU countries, certainly we have stonger infrastructure, manufacturing, and trade levels than Eire had at its break-away and they were going well til they were fed to the banks by their governers. Agreed

I think it's worth a crack. If nothing else it means we can be free of London's sorry attempts to retain fading international prowess. We can just get on with it, without killing people half a world away, and screwing their economies cause it suits us.

Trouble is is it worth a crack, i think it has to be watertight, the Scots deserve that much . The financial independence issue is very complicated.

And i am sure lots of English will be glad to see the back of all those Scottish MPs like Tony Blair and Gordon brown for example, the Scots can have them lol

 

[lunakilo]

This may be a stupid question, but what would the Scottish gain from independence?

I mean, untangling Scotland from the rest of the UK is going to be a pain in the but isn't it?
So why bother?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

This may be a stupid question, but what would the Scottish gain from independence?

I mean, untangling Scotland from the rest of the UK is going to be a pain in the but isn't it?
So why bother?

I think it goes beyond economics and actual real benefits. It's the social, political aspect of being independent that's important. It's the feeling of being separated from a country that you wish no part of, if that is indeed what the Scottish want.

I know a SNP supporter, and while he likes to argue about how Scotland can stand on its own two feet financially, he also says that that is not what really matters. What really matters is the freedom of autonomy, of independence. There aren't any real financial benefits set in stone, and they certainly won't be the reason anyone wants independence. The reason is the ability to govern themselves, and to have a country of their own. There is no real financial/beneficial reason.

 

[Yerda]

This may be a stupid question, but what would the Scottish gain from independence?

Autonomy.

We are governed by an alien agenda dictated by politicians who could hardly be more unpopular if they tried. As a Scot, I feel that the Tory government has no right to govern a nation that hates them. The Lib Dems are a joke up here, and it looks like we're even starting to shed our umbilical cord that ties us to Labour.

 

[Magic Man]

This may be a stupid question, but what would the Scottish gain from independence?

I mean, untangling Scotland from the rest of the UK is going to be a pain in the but isn't it?
So why bother?

[youtube]zmJTcyqiZ44[/youtube]
YouTube - Braveheart Freedom Short



Thanks for this thread, by the way. I haven't kept up with this in recent years. It's interesting to know that there is still the possibility of secession, and I'm glad to get the perspective of people who are actually involved and affected by it.

 

[kai]

68 per cent of English want independence from Scotland

68 per cent of English want independence from Scotland | News

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

68 per cent of English want independence from Scotland

68 per cent of English want independence from Scotland | News

Wow. This was taken in 2006 though, mind you. Who knows what may have happened since then. The SNP take over may scare many English people into backing the unionist cause, or maybe increase the support for independence.

 

[kai]

Wow. This was taken in 2006 though, mind you. Who knows what may have happened since then. The SNP take over may scare many English people into backing the unionist cause, or maybe increase the support for independence.

The feelings have probably gotten stronger by now. Most people i know dont really care that much about the union. They feel English Taxes ( rightly or wrongly) support the rest of the members, and feel the English would get the best deal if the union was split up.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

The feelings have probably gotten stronger by now. Most people i know dont really care that much about the union. They feel English Taxes ( rightly or wrongly) support the rest of the members, and feel the English would get the best deal if the union was split up.

Haha, and the Scottish and Welsh think the English taxes are only supporting the English.

 

[lunakilo]

Well if people in both Scotland and England yhink it is a good idea, then who am I to argue against it.

Come to think of it I found it very amusing in the 2009 European Parliament election that I ended up voting for scottish independence.
What i mean is that I voted for the green group in the EU-parlament which the SNP is part.
It was not intentional, I was trying to vote for the liberal group, but the local danish politicians messed it up.

But I guess that is a different union all together. Let's leave that one out of the equation for now shall we

 

[kai]

Haha, and the Scottish and Welsh think the English taxes are only supporting the English.

Yep I wonder if theres a plain enough explanation around? What everyone needs to see is a is a business plan, to have it in black and white what are the ramifications for us all. The last thing we need is some pull on the emotional strings from the likes of Mel Gibson's inaccurate but very enjoyable entertainment.

 

[Magic Man]

The last thing we need is some pull on the emotional strings from the likes of Mel Gibson's inaccurate but very enjoyable entertainment.

Yeah, I'm the biggest fan there is of Braveheart (That's not really an exaggeration), but as much as it sounds great to finally break free from England, weighing the practical pros and cons should be the priority, and the emotional reaction due to that movie and its like shouldn't play a part in it. Emotion rarely has a valid role in economic and political decisions, especially of this magnitude.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Yeah, I'm the biggest fan there is of Braveheart (That's not really an exaggeration), but as much as it sounds great to finally break free from England, weighing the practical pros and cons should be the priority, and the emotional reaction due to that movie and its like shouldn't play a part in it. Emotion rarely has a valid role in economic and political decisions, especially of this magnitude.

But that's sadly what it boils down to. It's emotions that's driving the people of Scotland to break free from the United Kingdom, for the purpose of governing themselves. There is no practical benefit to it.

 

[kai]

But that's sadly what it boils down to. It's emotions that's driving the people of Scotland to break free from the United Kingdom, for the purpose of governing themselves. There is no practical benefit to it.

I think it would be great if we all governed ourselves within the framework of the United Kingdom ----somehow

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

I think it would be great if we all governed ourselves within the framework of the United Kingdom ----somehow

Agreed. But how we would do that is the question. :/

Hopefully the Scottish will be happy with increased privileges and power that will surely be coming thanks to the SNP takeover. But I also know quite a few Scots that just want nothing to do with the UK at all, and don't want to be associated with them. To just be independent. There's no way around that one. Even if they governed themselves completely, but still were part of the "UK" for namesake, they would still not have the complete independence and disassociation that many of them desire...

 

[kai]

Agreed. But how we would do that is the question. :/

Hopefully the Scottish will be happy with increased privileges and power that will surely be coming thanks to the SNP takeover. But I also know quite a few Scots that just want nothing to do with the UK at all, and don't want to be associated with them. To just be independent. There's no way around that one. Even if they governed themselves completely, but still were part of the "UK" for namesake, they would still not have the complete independence and disassociation that many of them desire...

well i suppose at the end of the day its up to the Scots to decide, all i hope is we all get some decent information on the ramifications of the different options.

This may be of interest;

http://bloodycontrarian.blogspot.com/2011/01/scottish-independence-pros-and-cons.html

 

[Yerda]

I think it would be great if we all governed ourselves within the framework of the United Kingdom ----somehow

I think that's an acceptable scenario. Support for Scottish independence would probably drop if we had more key issues decided by our own Parliament.

I say give the Midlands a Parliament, the Cornish their own assembly, reform the Lords into a democratic house, and introduce a a written constitution. We can all be economic Brits, and hold our own nationhood under a fairer, less central, and more democratic system.

The worst thing we could do is leave things as they are.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

I think that's an acceptable scenario. Support for Scottish independence would probably drop if we had more key issues decided by our own Parliament.

I say give the Midlands a Parliament, the Cornish their own assembly, reform the Lords into a democratic house, and introduce a a written constitution. We can all be economic Brits, and hold our own nationhood under a fairer, less central, and more democratic system.

The worst thing we could do is leave things as they are.

We can all imagine what an ideal United Kingdom would be. But what political party is going to put these things into practice? What political party has the guts to try and dissolve the House of Lords? What political party has the guts to try and give Cornwall an assembly, to give the Midlands a parliament, to promote equality and unity in all things? You can sit there and think about how life should be, but who's going to make it happen?

 

[Darkness]

I think it goes beyond economics and actual real benefits. It's the social, political aspect of being independent that's important. It's the feeling of being separated from a country that you wish no part of, if that is indeed what the Scottish want.

I know a SNP supporter, and while he likes to argue about how Scotland can stand on its own two feet financially, he also says that that is not what really matters. What really matters is the freedom of autonomy, of independence. There aren't any real financial benefits set in stone, and they certainly won't be the reason anyone wants independence. The reason is the ability to govern themselves, and to have a country of their own. There is no real financial/beneficial reason.

By that same logic the United States should have been fractioned in many different states a long time ago. Americans in the North-East, such as myself, view southerners as un-American in their outlook, since we feel their loyalties lie with theocracy and religion and our loyalties lie with liberal-democratic principles. Conversely, southerners view us as un-American elitists, who do not understand the history and tradition of the United States. Yet, I can see no benefit for breaking up the United States. Currently, we need strong, unified Western states to counteract the growing power of the Eastern countries (i.e. China and India).

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

I'd like to see the UK break up and a new association emerge between Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales.

I agree