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Seal of the Prophets - Does it mean Muhammad is the final Prophet?

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And there are many hadithes which states the Qaim comes with a new Book.

Other hadiths explain this to mean there will be such a misunderstanding to Quran and Islam is lost such that, that when he brings Quran, people will argue about him pertaining to Quran till he manifests it's justice and interprets correctly for the people.

This (Islam being lost) happened during time of Imam Ali let alone after, Imams kept the religion strong for those who seek the truth, while falsehood reigned in majority people hearts.

And the fact you don't see Ahlulbayt and the Mahdi as in the 12th Successor and exactly the warnings about the Mahdi in the Quran, proves, it will be as if a new book, when the Mahdi brings it's proper interpretation.

The ahadith about Mahdi seeking to bring the proper interpretation of Quran are many and there are ahadith that explain 'what do you mean by new religion and new law and new book' and they say, the religion was so distorted and Quran so misunderstood it's as if a new book.

And the hadiths about Taweel outnumber the ones about a new book, and so they can reconciled like that.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Other hadiths explain this to mean there will be such a misunderstanding to Quran and Islam is lost such that, that when he brings Quran, people will argue about him pertaining to Quran till he manifests it's justice and interprets correctly for the people.

This (Islam being lost) happened during time of Imam Ali let alone after, Imams kept the religion strong for those who seek the truth, while falsehood reigned in majority people hearts.

And the fact you don't see Ahlulbayt and the Mahdi as in the 12th Successor and exactly the warnings about the Mahdi in the Quran, proves, it will be as if a new book, when the Mahdi brings it's proper interpretation.

The ahadith about Mahdi seeking to bring the proper interpretation of Quran are many and there are ahadith that explain 'what do you mean by new religion and new law and new book' and they say, the religion was so distorted and Quran so misunderstood it's as if a new book.

And the hadiths about Taweel outnumber the ones about a new book, and so they can reconciled like that.
"he brings Quran, people will argue about him pertaining to Quran till he manifests it's justice and interprets correctly for the people."

That is what has been done exactly by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908 the Promised Messiah and Imam Mahdi, he has brought interpretation of Quran and by this has revived true teaching of Quran/Islam and Sunnah of Muhammad.
Should I agree with one, please?

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Is this same faith? No. It's religious debates. This means anyone can join.

I am a syncretist. Something Muslims would probably consider haram because they don't believe in questioning ideas or mixing with other people.

By your own words, you have admitted that Allah is not God, something Muslims are always careful to tell "nonbelievers" is not so. "Oh we worship the same God as you," they all say. Thank you for reminding me otherwise.
God is named God, because he is God. Any God who needs another name, is in question after all:

"The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao, the name that can be named is not the eternal Name. "

Once you start putting a name to God, calling God something fixed like Emily or Joseph or Ashley or Bob (or Allah), you turn your deity into lowercase god. An idol. Just as you do when you you start kneeling several times a day to a stone made by human hands. Muhammad didn't abolish idol worship. He streamlined it! That makes him a false prophet, and our discussion could technically be over.

But debates are not things to be won, because winning doesn't reallt help anyone actually reach an understanding. So here it is. What makes a prophet different from say... a camel salesman looking to pretend to be one, by claiming an angel spoke to him? There are several things: (1) Outside authority, (2) motive, (3) mission.

(1) You cannot be a self-proclaimed prophet. To be a prophet implies that God chose you. And you will see this repeatedly in the Jewish and Christian Old Testament but also in leaders of Hindu and Buddhist traditions where avatars or orher messengers spoke to them. If the Quran is written by Muhammad himself (which is, in essence so, though actually you can tell he orated it because of repetition frequent within the text
https://www.quora.com/Is-Quran-written-by-prophet-Muhammed-alone )
then he is a self-proclaimed prophet. Why is it important that a prophet not be self-proclaimed? Because it not only draws into question their motives, but leads to a sense of "because I said so." You'll see repeatedly that prophets in Judaism are never self-proclaimed, in fact Jonah proves this extemely well, when he is called by God and he runs away to another country. He is called to tell Ninevah, a section of I believe in Iraq, that their way is in error. Okay picture this, a Jew told to tell Iraqis, "God wants you to repent." Yeaaah, most people will run the other way. But it turns out Jonah isn't afraid that they will try to kill him, no he is afraid they will in fact put on sackcloth and repent. He hopes God would kill off these people that he probably dislikes but knows they would repent if someone like him told them. What does this teach us but that a prophet doesn't call himself but rather receives a call, and like or not, he feels driven to do so ( Jonah in fact tried to flee to another country and got tossed overboard after they decided he was cursing the ship).

(2) A prophet also cannot be motivated by greed (and again, prophet in this case is not one who is a seer, but one who has been instructed to deliver a message). If a prophet is after fame, power, or wealth their motives are wrong and their words cannot be trusted.
HISTORY OF MUHAMMAD
Muhammad was a child of a merchant family adopted into a caravan. He starts retreating into a mountain and sees a... stop right there! Already we have his motive. He is sick of the caravan life and wandering in poverty, he doesn't want to be some unknown trader, so he starts coming up with a story about how some angel talked to him. We already have a motive of fame, and through his life history we also see wealth and power. He dies fairly well off. Contrast this to the fate of most Jewish prophets. Most of them were outcasts, penniless, and some died in the most painful way imaginable. I could talk about Jesus, but I know the story that Muslims hear about Jesus, so that's pointless. Let's talk about Jonah again. What did he get for his trouble? Fame? Wealth? Nope, he got to sit outside the city while all of the others had become righteous and were in atonement, and watch a tree wither while he suffered in the sun. The text ends with him getting lectured. Many of the other prophets got killed for their efforts. Elijah had to run to a mountain somewhere because the kings and leaders found his message offensive. Not one of these people did it for the money or for fame, but rather suffered for their message.

(3) And yet, what defined a prophet was a sense that when times got hard, they knew exactly what they were told to do. Here again, Muhammad fails. Having been rejected by the people he tries to convert, he decides to make wae on them. This here invalidates him finally, and completely as a prophet. When a prophet abandons their mission to spread a message and instead visits violence on the people called to hear it, he has failed in his mission. Any real prophet would have told him exactly what to do. To be unswayed by their rejection, and stay to proclaim his words anyway, accepting whatever they did to him. But instead, he makes war on his charges.
Not one of the prophets of Judaism does this. They carry out their mission regardless of person risk. They try to reform injustices, to make converts even when those around them hate them or distrust them, and they stay on task, not ababdoning their way to violence.

Jesus actually never once called himself Son of God. He called himself the son of man, a name from Ezeki mostly. It was his disciples (Peter in particular) and his enemies (one of the Roman centurions who witnessed a storm during his death) who said he was the Son of God.

Jesus in his own lifetime is asked by whose authority. So instead he asks about John the Baptist, whether he acted by God's authority or by man's (that is, his own). John the Baptist, if he was a prophet would have acted by God's authority, for reasons I have told in the paragraphs above. Yet the Pharisees were reluctant to admit he was a prophet because John personally damaged their reputation because he was not like them, and it also raised the quedtion of why as priests they rejected him. On the other hand, they feared the crowd if they said that he was not a prophet. So they were trapped. Because they couldn't answer there, Jesus didn't have to answer, because like John he had also been rejected by the priests of his time.
"You cannot be a self-proclaimed prophet."

I agree with one on the above line I have colored in magenta. Muhammad was appointed by G-d as a Prophet/Messenger and similarly Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908 as the Promised Messiah and Imam Mahdi- a Successor of Muhammad.

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
It hs been explained to you many times paarsurry that the Kitab-i-Iqan was written as an answer to a question from the Bab's Uncle about the station of the Bab.

Baha'u'llah had not yet proclaimed His Station.

The core book of Baha'u'llah is the Kitbi-aqdas (Book of Laws) the Most Holy Book.

The Kitáb-i-Aqdas

Peace be with you.

Regards Tony
Writings of Bahá’u’lláh
In the middle of the 19th century, Bahá’u’lláh (1817-1892)—the “Glory of God”—delivered a new Revelation from God to humanity. For four decades, thousands of verses, letters and books flowed from His pen, amounting to some 100 volumes of Sacred Writings.
Authoritative Writings and Guidance | Bahá’í Reference Library
None of the Books of Bahaullah fit to be Word of G-d or Word from G-d, all his books , including Kitab-i-Iqan and Kitab-i-Aqdas, were written by Bahaullah himself as admitted by bahai.org "flowed from His (Bahaullah's) pen" and not from G-d.
Right, please?

Regards
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Other hadiths explain this to mean there will be such a misunderstanding to Quran and Islam is lost such that, that when he brings Quran, people will argue about him pertaining to Quran till he manifests it's justice and interprets correctly for the people.

This (Islam being lost) happened during time of Imam Ali let alone after, Imams kept the religion strong for those who seek the truth, while falsehood reigned in majority people hearts.

And the fact you don't see Ahlulbayt and the Mahdi as in the 12th Successor and exactly the warnings about the Mahdi in the Quran, proves, it will be as if a new book, when the Mahdi brings it's proper interpretation.

The ahadith about Mahdi seeking to bring the proper interpretation of Quran are many and there are ahadith that explain 'what do you mean by new religion and new law and new book' and they say, the religion was so distorted and Quran so misunderstood it's as if a new book.

And the hadiths about Taweel outnumber the ones about a new book, and so they can reconciled like that.

There is also the option that it was the Bab and Baha'u'llah that brought the right interpretation.

Given the history of religion and the fact that the majority of followers reject Allah's new Message in favour of their own interpretations and want for leadership, the Messages of the Bab and Baha'u'llah are far more likely to be the promise fulfilled.

Those that will bring peace are those that have peace in their hearts. Those that will bring love, are those that love all unconditionally.

Regards Tony
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Other hadiths explain this to mean there will be such a misunderstanding to Quran and Islam is lost such that, that when he brings Quran, people will argue about him pertaining to Quran till he manifests it's justice and interprets correctly for the people.

This (Islam being lost) happened during time of Imam Ali let alone after, Imams kept the religion strong for those who seek the truth, while falsehood reigned in majority people hearts.

And the fact you don't see Ahlulbayt and the Mahdi as in the 12th Successor and exactly the warnings about the Mahdi in the Quran, proves, it will be as if a new book, when the Mahdi brings it's proper interpretation.

The ahadith about Mahdi seeking to bring the proper interpretation of Quran are many and there are ahadith that explain 'what do you mean by new religion and new law and new book' and they say, the religion was so distorted and Quran so misunderstood it's as if a new book.

And the hadiths about Taweel outnumber the ones about a new book, and so they can reconciled like that.
Why can it not be both? The Qaim will bring a new Book, which corrects misinterpretations, as well as bringing new Divine Laws which will replace the Sharia of Islam.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Writings of Bahá’u’lláh
In the middle of the 19th century, Bahá’u’lláh (1817-1892)—the “Glory of God”—delivered a new Revelation from God to humanity. For four decades, thousands of verses, letters and books flowed from His pen, amounting to some 100 volumes of Sacred Writings.
Authoritative Writings and Guidance | Bahá’í Reference Library
None of the Books of Bahaullah fit to be Word of G-d or Word from G-d, all his books were written by Bahaullah himself as admitted by bahai.org "flowed from His (Bahaullah's) pen".

Regards

Now study how it flowed from the pen and who it flowed from paarsurry. It will show the weakness of that statement.

Consider one of the greatest of Muslim Scholars was sent by the Shah to find out about Bab and witnessed the Revelation flowing from Bab, in his own words;

"... How am I to describe this scene of inexpressible majesty? Verses streamed from His pen with a rapidity that was truly astounding. The incredible swiftness of His writing, the soft and gentle murmur of His voice, and the stupendous force of His style, amazed and bewildered me. He continued in this manner until the approach of sunset. He did not pause until the entire commentary of the Surih was completed. He then laid down His pen and asked for tea. Soon after, He began to read it aloud in my presence. My heart leaped madly as I heard Him pour out, in accents of unutterable sweetness, those treasures enshrined in that sublime commentary. I was so entranced by its beauty that three times over I was on the verge of fainting. He sought to revive my failing strength with a few drops of rose-water which He caused to be sprinkled on my face. This restored my vigour and enabled me to follow His reading to the end..... "

Siyyid Yahya-i-Darabi (Vahid) – Bahai Chronicles

It was the same for Baha'u'llah, who the Bab had prepared the way for and extolled in His Writings.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
"he brings Quran, people will argue about him pertaining to Quran till he manifests it's justice and interprets correctly for the people."

That is what has been done exactly by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908 the Promised Messiah and Imam Mahdi, he has brought interpretation of Quran and by this has revived true teaching of Quran/Islam and Sunnah of Muhammad.
Should I agree with one, please?

Regards

One may like to read my post #262 which is relevant here also, please.

Regards

What it proves paarsurry, is that you believe, just as the Baha'i believe, that Muhammad was not the last Messenger.

Regards Tony
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I can read Urdu but cannot understand the language. But I have read the English translation.

So what's your point?
Does one agree with all the contents/points mentioned in that small book by the Promised Messiah/Imam Mahdi 1835-1908, please?
All are relevant/valid points as I understand. Right, please?

Regards
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Does one agree with all the contents/points mentioned in that small book by the Promised Messiah/Imam Mahdi 1835-1908, please?
All are relevant points as I understand. Right, please?

Regards

From what I have read paarsurry, I see many teachings do reflect what the Bab and Baha'u'llah had already written.

I see your Faith was founded in1889.

As such why would you attempt to show the writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah are not divine in origin? It would be akin to saying what you cherish in your heart, also does not have divine origin.

A quandary indeed!

Regards Tony,
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why can it not be both? The Qaim will bring a new Book, which corrects misinterpretations, as well as bringing new Divine Laws which will replace the Sharia of Islam.

There are many hadith he will not bring a new book but will revive quran and sunnah. Many hadiths say he will bring back sunnah with no innovations in it.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
One may like to read my post #262 which is relevant here also, please.

Regards

Hi @paarsurrey
I find it fascinating that we have two competing Madhi claims from the Ahmadiyyi and Baha'i communities. As I understand it, both claims can not be correct. The options are either one of the two claims are correct, or neither are.

As you will see from the link the Ahmadiyya community is not well established in New Zealand, where I live.

Ahmadiyya by country - Wikipedia

I had never heard of it until I met you on RF. I wish you and your community well. Regardless of the truth or otherwise of the claims of your founder, there can be no justification for the persecution of members of your community.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Hi @paarsurrey
I find it fascinating that we have two competing Madhi claims from the Ahmadiyyi and Baha'i communities. As I understand it, both claims can not be correct. The options are either one of the two claims are correct, or neither are.

As you will see from the link the Ahmadiyya community is not well established in New Zealand, where I live.

Ahmadiyya by country - Wikipedia

I had never heard of it until I met you on RF. I wish you and your community well. Regardless of the truth or otherwise of the claims of your founder, there can be no justification for the persecution of members of your community.
The Bahaism people in New Zealand:

"A 1999 report from the census bureau noted that of the citizens of New Zealand of Middle Eastern ethnicity, 4% were Bahá'í and 20% of the Bahá'ís in New Zealand are members of some ethnic minority.[66] The 1991 and 2006 New Zealand census reports about 2800 Bahá'ís[11] though the 1996 census listed just over 3100 Bahá'ís.[67] The Association of Religion Data Archives (relying mostly on the World Christian Encyclopedia) estimated some 7400 Bahá'ís in 2005.[13] There are more than 65 local Bahá’í communities around New Zealand, the large city communities have hundreds of members and assemblies, while some rural areas having groups of just two or three Bahá'ís.[68] About 46 are full-fledged assemblies.[12] The religion was called a "mainstream religion" by the International Union for Conservation of Nature.[69]"
Bahá'í Faith in New Zealand - Wikipedia
This shows that both the communities need to have more contacts with one another and have a peaceful dialogue with one another in New Zealand.
Right, please?

Regards
____________
AF1QipNNiDX1ZJHweE0L-hpJtVm35-LE7yhFwf348_hz=w240-h160-k-no

Baitul Muqeet Mosque
Address: 20 Dalgety Dr, Wiri, Manukau 2104, New Zealand
Opened: 2013
Open 24 hours
Phone: +64 9-267 0570
Welcome to Ahmadiyya.ca | Ahmadiyya Muslim Community ...
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
There are many hadith he will not bring a new book but will revive quran and sunnah. Many hadiths say he will bring back sunnah with no innovations in it.
"he will not bring a new book but will revive quran and sunnah"
"he will bring back sunnah with no innovations"

This is exactly what the Promised Messiah/Imam Mahdi 1835-1908 has done. He brought no new Quran and has revived its interpretation as commanded by G-d and revived the Sunnah of Muhammad. Right, please?

Regards
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
The Bahaism people in New Zealand:

"A 1999 report from the census bureau noted that of the citizens of New Zealand of Middle Eastern ethnicity, 4% were Bahá'í and 20% of the Bahá'ís in New Zealand are members of some ethnic minority.[66] The 1991 and 2006 New Zealand census reports about 2800 Bahá'ís[11] though the 1996 census listed just over 3100 Bahá'ís.[67] The Association of Religion Data Archives (relying mostly on the World Christian Encyclopedia) estimated some 7400 Bahá'ís in 2005.[13] There are more than 65 local Bahá’í communities around New Zealand, the large city communities have hundreds of members and assemblies, while some rural areas having groups of just two or three Bahá'ís.[68] About 46 are full-fledged assemblies.[12] The religion was called a "mainstream religion" by the International Union for Conservation of Nature.[69]"
Bahá'í Faith in New Zealand - Wikipedia
This shows that both the communities need to have more contacts with one another and have a peaceful dialogue with one another in New Zealand.
Right, please?

Regards
____________
AF1QipNNiDX1ZJHweE0L-hpJtVm35-LE7yhFwf348_hz=w240-h160-k-no

Baitul Muqeet Mosque
Address: 20 Dalgety Dr, Wiri, Manukau 2104, New Zealand
Opened: 2013
Open 24 hours
Phone: +64 9-267 0570

There is no problem for Baha'is having a peaceful dialogue with Ahmadiyya Muslims. Although there is the mosque above, that is over 1,000 miles away from where I live. We do have a Sunni but not Shi'a mosque in my city. There's certainly no Ahmadiyya Mosque. I've never met any Ahmadiyya Muslims in my city and not aware that any are here. Its hard to have a dialogue if there's no Ahmadiyyas to dialogue with.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"he will not bring a new book but will revive quran and sunnah"
"he will bring back sunnah with no innovations"

This is exactly what the Promised Messiah/Imam Mahdi 1835-1908 has done. He brought no new Quran and has revived its interpretation as commanded by G-d and revived the Sunnah of Muhammad. Right, please?

Regards

The Quran teaches the Messengers always come in forms of Ahlulbayts, these houses that God permitted to be risen and his name remembered there in, have after the Founding Navigator and builder of the ship of salvation, twelve Captains to navigate and keep the believers on course.

The course from the people of Moses that people had to hold on to, were those who guided by truth and established justice, and these paths, and branches linking back to the blessed root of tree of revelation, were Twelve. And the light brought with the Prophet was split into twelve Captains and Witnessing Leaders and Guides and Kings.

Also, the Mahdi is taught in Quran to be one of biggest days of God and the days of God are when oppressors are not longer respited if they oppress or believers don't defeat them. Mohammad people were spared punishment due to Mohammad and the believers who were prosecuted with him in the start. Otherwise, it seem like a point they would be destroyed like other people were destroyed in the past.

The Mahdi is the warning that is not local to a place, but universal, such that every town and city can be punished and destroyed, and we were on course to that, and may be one course to that still, and we have to avoid this catastrophe that is surely coming if we mock God's warnings and signs.

The Mahdi thus will come with clear miracles, the whole world will witness, and is a universal trial.

He is the last trial before the day of judgment for humanity!

Oppress him and believers with him, and humanity will perish, and the believers will inherit the earth, and God never punishes a people while people still seeking to reform themselves and do good!
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Adrian, Buddy, you seem you be trying to make something out of nothing. You are trying so hard to split hairs however, with all due respect, you neither have the hair nor do have the tools to even think about this kind of job. Allow me to explain and let’s look at the word that seems to be “stressing” you out, the word Khatam which in Arabic is pronounced as Kahtim.

The word Khatim has many translations depending on the context and some are, ring, seal, end, final, over, to beat, to win, to defeat or even to stamp. And many others, again, all depending on context. In the end, no matter the context, they all me “finished” or “no more”. For example, when you seal a letter shut in Arabic the word Khatam is used, when you finish a game or project the word In-Khatam can be used, when someone has finished reading or memorizing the Quran the word Khatam Is used the title of Khatim Al Quran is given to someone who has memorized the Quran. A ring or ring shape is a Khatim in Arabic. If you take all the different contexts I have used the root word of Khatim with, you notice they all end up meaning “final”, “last”, “no more”, and “the end”. You did say something I agree with and that’s “not captured well with translation into another language.“. Also, you seemed to either intentionally or un-intentionally left out all the other texts that do explain and plainly explain that Muhammed is the last and FINAL messenger and Prophet of Islam.

You also said “Of course there is not a single English translation that says Muhammad is the final Prophet for all time.” Maybe if you are looking at that 1 single verse there may not be, however, as I mentioned before there are many, many, many, many other places you can see where that is clearly said and explained. Also, think about this, if I said “Adrian, this is my final reply to this thread” what would be understood by you? Would you take it as he will come back later and reply or will you understand is that his last and final reply to this thread?

Hi @Earthtank
There is no stress here. You asked a question and I expressed my learning from this thread thus far. Your written expression is very clear. What was spoken by Muhammad and then recorded in the Quran 33:40 is not as clear for obvious reasons. It is a religious text with allegory and both textural and historic context to consider. It was written nearly 1,400 years ago.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Given the history of religion and the fact that the majority of followers reject Allah's new Message in favour of their own interpretations and want for leadership, the Messages of the Bab and Baha'u'llah are far more likely to be the promise fulfilled.

On what basis have you made the decision that you inherited the right interpretation? And when you say "Allah's new message" what do you mean?
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
On what basis have you made the decision that you inherited the right interpretation? And when you say "Allah's new message" what do you mean?

Thank you for the question firedragon.

I will start by stating that I see that Allah has revealed the Messages given by both the Bab and Baha'u'llah. These are not their words;

"This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven,..." Baha'u'llah.

The Bab prepared the way for this message, the Bab wrote about the coming Divine Teacher as “Him Whom God shall make manifest” and stated that “no words of Mine can adequately describe Him, nor can any reference in My Book, the Bayan, do justice to His Cause.”

The Bayan was the cleaving of the Old World Order and laying the foundation of the New, "No just estimate have they made of Allah, such as is due to Him: On the Day of Judgment the whole of the earth will be but His handful, and the heavens will be rolled up in His right hand: Glory to Him! High is He above the Partners they attribute to Him!" 39:67

As such Allah's new Revelation is this 'Day of Judgement'.

Regards Tony
 
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