Seal of the Prophets - Does it mean Muhammad is the final Prophet?

[firedragon]

Verse 3:7 says some of its verses are mutishabihat (allegorical, unclear), and none knows their interpretation, except those who are well-grounded in knowledge. According to Quran and hadithes, Muhammad and His successors are well grounded in knowledge. How could God leave a people with a Book, but does not provide its interpretation? Thus, the hadithes of prophet and imams must have sufficient information to interpret Quran. We cannot understand quran without hadithes of the prophet and imams, because no body can claim they he is well grounded in knowledge, and knows its interpretations.

rejecting the hadithes of imams, which clearly say Qaim comes with a new book, and a new islam does not seem compatible with Islam, because these hadithes are compatible with Quran. Quran also confirms Torah being from God, and no where Quran says the Torah got corrupted. Peace.

Yes. We hear this quite often. But you reject the Quran. You put more value in the hadith. And you still have not given the source of the hadith even to explore. I ask because I dont know the source of the hadith you have provided. The book is written in 17th century or early 18th century. the prophet lived a millennium ago. So for a 1000 years where did the hadith exist? Thats my question. You have avoided that question many times.

So peace.

 

[firedragon]

I see that is the difference, something I can not and will not attempt to change. Allah gives to all hearts, as Allah so chooses. I see in the Message of the Bab and Baha'u'llah what others see in the Message of Muhammad and the Quran, I see Allah.

I see no error, only my ignorance, I can never say Muhammad made a mistake if I see something I do not understand in the Quran, I see the bounty of submitting and asking for wisdom.

I choose that path, as I see when one perceives that they have a knowledge greater than God, then God has allowed that pride, it is its own punishment.

Life has shown me it is easy to choose this world and self over what it is Allah guides us towards.

Peace be with you. Regards Tony

Thanks. Thats your prerogative.

I wish you well.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes. We hear this quite often. But you reject the Quran. You put more value in the hadith. And you still have not given the source of the hadith even to explore. I ask because I dont know the source of the hadith you have provided. The book is written in 17th century or early 18th century. the prophet lived a millennium ago. So for a 1000 years where did the hadith exist? Thats my question. You have avoided that question many times.

So peace.

I already replied to you. Muhammad and the Imams did not say, if they told you a hadith from Us, first check the source of the hadith. They asked the followers, if a hadith Is compatible with quran, and is originated from the quran, accept it. It is irrelevant to have a complete chain of narrators as a valid method of validating a hadith. Muhammad and the imams did not advise to keep a chain of narratives to validate a hadith.
It is quite logical from a scholarship point of view as well. You know why? Because the scholars agree that the Quran has remained in it's original form. No alteration is made to it. Thus, if a hadith is compatible with Quran, it can be said, it is also the saying of the Prophet. But if a hadith subject is not found in the Quran, it is certainly not a saying of the Prophet.

Anyways, that Qaim brings new Islam, is found in several other Hadithes as well, so, it is not just that single hadith:. Here is another one with its source:


غيبة النعماني: أخبرنا أحمد بن محمّد بن سعيد، قال: حدّثنا علي بن الحسن، عن أبيه، عن رفاعة بن موسى، عن عبد اللّه بن عطاء، قال: سألت أبا جعفر الباقر عليه السلام فقلت: إذا قام القائم عليه السلام بأيّ سيرة يسير في الناس؟فقال: يهدم ما قبله كما صنع رسول اللّه صلّى اللّه عليه و آله و سلّم، و يستأنف الإسلام جديدا

Abdullah bin ataa asked Imam Bagher: when the Qaim rises, in which direction will He guide people?
Imam said: He will abolish what is before Him, the same way Muhammad did, and will establish the new Islam.

منتخب الاثر فی الامام الثاني عشر علیه‌السلام - الصافي، الشيخ لطف الله - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

This hadith tells me, Qaim, will abolish the Sharia and Rites of Quran, and will, bring a new set of Rites and Laws.

 

[Link]

Salam

@InvestigateTruth

There is actually this hadith as well that says "there is no Prophet after him" in interpretation of "khatamal Anbiya" in the document I will link to: page 137

As for the hadith from Salman Farsi with the "twelve Captains" (no Prophet or Messenger is ever sent except he has with him Twelve Captains): page 139

أربعون حديثا معتبرا في النص على الأئمة الاثني عشر بأسمائهم

That is the link to the book, it's a good read, it has a quite a bit of hadiths, a lot of them describe the 12th Imam as the Mahdi that will fill the earth with justice after it's been filled with injustice....

So it's clear by these hadiths, the 12th Imam is the Mahdi.

 

[firedragon]

I already replied to you. Muhammad and the Imams did not say, if they told you a hadith from Us, first check the source of the hadith. They asked the followers, if a hadith Is compatible with quran, and is originated from the quran, accept it. It is irrelevant to have a complete chain of narrators as a valid method of validating a hadith. Muhammad and the imams did not advise to keep a chain of narratives to validate a hadith.
It is quite logical from a scholarship point of view as well. You know why? Because the scholars agree that the Quran has remained in it's original form. No alteration is made to it. Thus, if a hadith is compatible with Quran, it can be said, it is also the saying of the Prophet. But if a hadith subject is not found in the Quran, it is certainly not a saying of the Prophet.

Anyways, that Qaim brings new Islam, is found in several other Hadithes as well, so, it is not just that single hadith:. Here is another one with its source:


غيبة النعماني: أخبرنا أحمد بن محمّد بن سعيد، قال: حدّثنا علي بن الحسن، عن أبيه، عن رفاعة بن موسى، عن عبد اللّه بن عطاء، قال: سألت أبا جعفر الباقر عليه السلام فقلت: إذا قام القائم عليه السلام بأيّ سيرة يسير في الناس؟فقال: يهدم ما قبله كما صنع رسول اللّه صلّى اللّه عليه و آله و سلّم، و يستأنف الإسلام جديدا

Abdullah bin ataa asked Imam Bagher: when the Qaim rises, in which direction will He guide people?
Imam said: He will abolish what is before Him, the same way Muhammad did, and will establish the new Islam.

منتخب الاثر فی الامام الثاني عشر علیه‌السلام - الصافي، الشيخ لطف الله - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

This hadith tells me, Qaim, will abolish the Sharia and Rites of Quran, and will, bring a new set of Rites and Laws.

Alles Gut. Cheers.

 

[Link]

Also the hadith on page 137 says "there is no code of law (shariah) after Mohammad but Mohammad's Shariah till the day of judgment"

 

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The book I linked to is 40 authentic or Mutabir (higher then authentic) narrations about designation of the Twelve Imams by name.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Ibn Ayash Al-Hafeth: Narrated from me Abu Ali Ahmad ibn Mohammad ibn Jaffar Al-Usooli Al-Basiri, narrated from Abdar Rahman ibn Saleh ibn Raeeda narrated from Hussain ibn Hameed ibn Rabee' narrated Al-Hamshi narrated from Mohammad Al-Khalif Al-Taataatari, narrated from Zidaan narrated from Salman:

he said I entered upon the Messenger of God one day so when he looked at me he said "O Salman God doesn't raise a Prophet or a Messenger except he makes for him Twelve Captains". Salman said: "O Messenger of God, I know this from the people of two books", The Messenger of God so then said "O Salman so do you know who are the my Twelve Captains then God chosen as Leaders after me?" He said "God and his Messenger know better", "God created me from his own light so he called me so I obeyed him, then he created Ali from my light, and called him so he obeyed him, from my light and Ali's light he created Fatima, so he called her so she obeyed him, and from my light and the light of Ali, and Fatima he created Al-Hassan and Al-Hussain. And he called them and they obeyed him. So God named us with five names from his names, so God is the Praised (Al-Mahmud) and I am Mohammad (praised),and God is Al-Ali (The Exalted) and this is Ali (exalted), and God is the Originator/Source and this is Fatima (the original nature/the origin/the source) , and God is the owner of goodness (Dul-Ehsan) and this Al-Hassan (The good) and God is the Beautiful/Beautified and this is Hussain (the beautiful). Then God created from us and from the light of Hussain nine leaders so he called them and they obeyed him before God created a vast sky or spread earth or water or wind or a moral, we were in his knowledge lights who glorified him and who listened to him and obeyed him."....

What is noteworthy from this Hadith, is, Muhammad has 12 captains. Lady Fatima, is one of them. This means the Qaim is not a captain of Muhammad, otherwise He would be the 13th. The Qaim is an independent Messenger, with a new Book, and new Islam.

 

[Link]

منتخب الاثر فی الامام الثاني عشر علیه‌السلام - الصافي، الشيخ لطف الله - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

This hadith tells me, Qaim, will abolish the Sharia and Rites of Quran, and will, bring a new set of Rites and Laws.

That's with your Bahai bias that it says, while with My Shiite bias and believing in other hadiths like there is no Shariah after Mohammad's Shariah (which has a whole set of ahadith for), and his laws remain in tact till the day of judgment, and the many ahadith that say the Mahdi will bring back the religion of Mohammad, new and authentic, meaning to me, it means he will abolish the interpretation of Muslims to the Shariah and Islam, which is wrong, and totally wrong and opposed to Quran in many respects.

Yes, you can prove Bahaism through circumstantial evidence way, but there is no conclusive way by your method. You are showing one way the ahadith can be interpreted, but you don't account about other ways, which have support from ahadith as well.

 

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What is noteworthy from this Hadith, is, Muhammad has 12 captains. Lady Fatima, is one of them. This means the Qaim is not a captain of Muhammad, otherwise He would be the 13th. The Qaim is an independent Messenger, with a new Book, and new Islam.

The hadith says the Mahdi one of the Captains, I linked to the Source I read it from, in the Arabic. Fatima is not a Captain, a Captain means a leader who is to navigate society and believers not just in the spiritual journey but lead them to establish justice and should be ready to govern society if they accept him as Captain.

 

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Meaning read it in the original source, and it names all the twelve Imams include the Mahdi, as the Captains. And the Mahdi is said to be Mohammad son of Al-Hassan.

 

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Also the hadith is clear, Captains means leaders and successors to the Prophet chosen by God. Fatima even though is at the spiritual status, is not a successor of the Prophet who are Twelve. She does inherit his knowledge and guides in many respects, but the successors of his Leadership is Imam Ali, her husband.

 

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And with all the other hadiths naming the 12 Imams including Imam Mahdi, and you interpret like this, just shows how bias you are to prove Bahaism. Thus your interpretation of ahadiths is not taking account the more rational interpretation of any hadith you use which at most is circumstantial evidence, you don't have any conclusive evidence.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The hadith says the Mahdi one of the Captains, I linked to the Source I read it from, in the Arabic. Fatima is not a Captain, a Captain means a leader who is to navigate society and believers not just in the spiritual journey but lead them to establish justice and should be ready to govern society if they accept him as Captain.

To me, this Hadith is saying they are captains because they are created from light and obey. That includes lady Fatima, because she was sinless, and she is mentioned in this Hadith.

In the Quran, All must bear allegiance to Muhammad. But in Hadithes, the Qaim is not bounded to this allegiance, because He has an independent revelation:


Ghaibat Nomani: It is narrated from Ali bin Husain from Muhammad bin Yahya from Muhammad bin Hasan Raazi from Muhammad bin Ali Kufi from
Ibrahim bin Hashim from Hammad bin Isa from Ibrahim Ibne Umar Yamani from Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) that he said:
“The Qaim will rise while he is not bound by commitment to anyone’s
allegiance.”

 

[InvestigateTruth]

And with all the other hadiths naming the 12 Imams including Imam Mahdi, and you interpret like this, just shows how bias you are to prove Bahaism. Thus your interpretation of ahadiths is not taking account the more rational interpretation of any hadith you use which at most is circumstantial evidence, you don't have any conclusive evidence.

Yes, the Qaim is the 12th imam whose lineage goes back to Muhammad, but, being an Imam does not always mean He is not a Messenger as well. Abraham, as an example, was an Imam, as well as a prophet and a Messenger.
Fatima is not an Imam.

 

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To me, this Hadith is saying they are captains because they are created from light and obey. That includes lady Fatima, because she was sinless, and she is mentioned in this Hadith.

In the Quran, All must bear allegiance to Muhammad. But in Hadithes, the Qaim is not bounded to this allegiance, because He has an independent revelation:


Ghaibat Nomani: It is narrated from Ali bin Husain from Muhammad bin
Yahya from Muhammad bin Hasan Raazi from Muhammad bin Ali Kufi from
Ibrahim bin Hashim from Hammad bin Isa from Ibrahim Ibne Umar Yamani from
Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) that he said:
“The Qaim will rise while he is not bound by commitment to anyone’s
allegiance.”

These are all in context that the all the other Imams had to practice Taqiya and give allegiance to the rulers of their time. Even Imam Hussain at a time did with Mauwiya.

Imam Mahdi has no allegiance to any government, not bound by any of them is what it means.

You are so bias, in how you interpret every hadith.

But if you read that whole hadith (I didn't translate it all), it mentions the Mahdi as Mohammad so of Al-Hassan who is the son of Ali son of Mohammad son of Ali son of Musa son of Jaffar son of Mohammad son of Ali son of Hussain son of Ali and Fatima, daughter of Mohammad.

Read the hadith, it mentions the Mahdi, and so many (39 other hadiths in the book I linked to and there are many more) name the 12 Imams inclusive of the Mahdi, and the hadith explains what Captain means, it means Successor to and Leader after the Prophet.

 

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Yes, the Qaim is the 12th imam whose lineage goes back to Muhammad, but, being an Imam does not always mean He is not a Messenger as well. Abraham, as an example, was an Imam, as well as a prophet and a Messenger.

Imam Mahdi will be a Messenger, but for now he is just a hidden leader, when he comes with his message clear to all humans, that is when he is a Messenger. But He is not and will never be a Prophet (A Nabi) who receives a revelation in form of divine book to be held on by people.

But you are right, Ahlulbayt (as) were Messengers except Imam Mahdi who is yet to take this position. None of them were Anbiya however except Mohammad the end of them.

 

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Yes, the Qaim is the 12th imam whose lineage goes back to Muhammad, but, being an Imam does not always mean He is not a Messenger as well. Abraham, as an example, was an Imam, as well as a prophet and a Messenger.
Fatima is not an Imam.

Fatima is not an Imam in only the sense of Navigator and Captain society, in the sense of guides who guide by God's command, she is, like Mariam is included in "And we made them leaders who guide by our command", but she is not included in the "I am making you a leader to the people".

In some respects she is a leader, but in other respects, she isn't one of the Ulil-Amr or Imams... so it depends on context.

The Twelve Captains with Jesus are his predecessors till Moses. And the Twelve Captains with Moses are his successors till Jesus. The "with them" means they are their Ahlulbayt.

And Solomon Twelve Lion King captains symbolized by the giant Lion Statues, are his predecessors including David all the way Back to Moses. And his successors all the way to Jesus.


The next step is to see this in Quran. The way the Quran has, it's that's it such that every Prophet has a divinely chosen house, and that house has twelve Captains always. They have holy ladies like Sarah, Mary, Fatima, but those are not Captains, but they are "with them".

 

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To me, this Hadith is saying they are captains because they are created from light and obey.

No that explains how they are with Mohammad. Which means, the Twelve Captains of every Prophet, was included as part of their Ahlulbayt. Every Prophet had a holy family.

The holy family of the Mahdi, is his predecessors all the way to Mohammad, and includes his great grandmother Fatima. This was to explain what it means to be "with him", and so every Prophet has an Ahlulbayt with him, and from that Ahlulbayt, there is Twelve Captains a long side that Prophet.

For example, Imam Reda who is a Messenger, his Twelve are his predecessors all the way back Mohammad (inclusive) and his successors all the way to the Mahdi (inclusive).

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Also the hadith on page 137 says "there is no code of law (shariah) after Mohammad but Mohammad's Shariah till the day of judgment"

Yes, but there are Hadithes which says, the Day of Resurrection is the Day Qaim rises. Thus, the Sharia of Muhammad is valid until the day of resurrection, which is the day Qaim comes.