Seal of the Prophets - Does it mean Muhammad is the final Prophet?

[InvestigateTruth]

1. You believe in the Jewish Torah? You mean the pentateuch? Which part? The whole thing or part of it? If you believe in that, and the Quran as well, then if Abraham is part of a different creed, why is the creed of Abraham or Milleth Ibrahim assigned for us to follow?
2. Yet, what is Baytul Atheeq? Because it says thats where the Shaaira will go to because you are making it an end of an era.
3. How about Shaaeer of verse 5:2? What kind of era is that talking about?

1. Yes, the Torah is confirmed in the Quran, and the Quran asks Muslims to follow the creed of Abraham, because they were Submitters to God. I don't think we can conclude from this, Abraham had exactly same religious laws as Noah, or Moses or Jesus. Each had a different holy Book.

2. In my first post regarding Baytul Ateeq, i put a link to a Hadith book. It is said in traditions that just as there is Kaaba on earth, there is also a Kaabe in heaven. That is called Baytul ateeq. God sent down Revelation of Quran from Baytul Ateeq. Then it will go back to it. It is same as what is said in another verse, God sent down guidance and it will go up again in 1000 years. If we say, guidance continued till passing of the 11th Imam in year 260AH, then 1000 years after, will be 1260 AH.

 

[Link]

and after me, there will be no more prophets"; instead he told us to watch for messengers citing the message we find in the Quran.

In my opinion.

He said the words "there is no Prophet after me." according to so many chains and hadiths, Sunni and Shiite as well as historical reports, on the event when he said to Ali he has the same position of Aaron to Moses.

You might as well leave no role for the Prophet to explain the Quran, if we are going to deny this incident!

 

[firedragon]

1. Yes, the Torah is confirmed in the Quran, and the Quran asks Muslims to follow the creed of Abraham, because they were Submitters to God. I don't think we can conclude from this, Abraham had exactly same religious laws as Noah, or Moses or Jesus. Each had a different holy Book.

Alright. This is since you insist alright.

How do you know what is the Torah? Because there is a book that someone named Torah? Someone, millenniums ago, named a collection of books the "Torah". Thus, you believe that person or people with no objections is it?

2. In my first post regarding Baytul Ateeq, i put a link to a Hadith book. It is said in traditions that just as there is Kaaba on earth, there is also a Kaabe in heaven. That is called Baytul ateeq. God sent down Revelation of Quran from Baytul Ateeq. Then it will go back to it. It is same as what is said in another verse, God sent down guidance and it will go up again in 1000 years. If we say, guidance continued till passing of the 11th Imam in year 260AH, then 1000 years after, will be 1260 AH.

I already told you that I had that hadith book, not all the volumes but I have the required volume. And mind you, you still did not tell me the source of this hadith. You giving me a book written a few centuries ago that quotes a hadith attributed to a man a 1000 years before the book was written is not valid. I respect it, but I dont accept it blindly.

 

[Link]

Baytal Ateeq = Baytal Mamoor = The household of Mohammad. The word house doesn't mean physical house, but means family. There is many hadiths showing that Ali for example, is the "Kaba of faith".

 

[Link]

And they are the tree of life that Adam (as) envied and fell due to mistrusting for a moment, when Iblis beautified trying to attain the rank of the exalted ones and being a king of the universe, and being one of the everlasting kings of the universe!

 

[paarsurrey]

He said the words "there is no Prophet after me." according to so many chains and hadiths, Sunni and Shiite as well as historical reports, on the event when he said to Ali he has the same position of Aaron to Moses.

You might as well leave no role for the Prophet to explain the Quran, if we are going to deny this incident!

What one understands from the following verse of Quran, please
[45:7]
تِلۡکَ اٰیٰتُ اللّٰہِ نَتۡلُوۡہَا عَلَیۡکَ بِالۡحَقِّ ۚ فَبِاَیِّ حَدِیۡثٍۭ بَعۡدَ اللّٰہِ وَ اٰیٰتِہٖ یُؤۡمِنُوۡنَ ﴿۷﴾

Regards
____________
Principles of interpretation of Hadith
After investigating the chain of narration of a Hadith, the second thing which requires investigation is the text of a Hadith. Although scholars of Hadith have left no stone unturned in investigating the characters and biographies of the narrators and have spent a greater part of their lives in this research, yet like every human endeavour, the natural flaws which still exist in the narration of a Hadith requires that the following two things must always remain in consideration while investigating the text of a Hadith:
1. Nothing in it should be against the Qur’an and Sunnah
2. Nothing in it should be against established facts derived from knowledge and reason
http://www.renaissance.com.pk/JulHadi2y6.htm
Of course one should believe these principle after due pondering under the guidance of Quran and Sunnah and every effort should be made to harmonize one’s interpretation with Quran.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Alright. This is since you insist alright.

How do you know what is the Torah? Because there is a book that someone named Torah? Someone, millenniums ago, named a collection of books the "Torah". Thus, you believe that person or people with no objections is it?

I am only saying the Islamic view based on its sources (Quran and Hadith) as I see it. What i am demonstrating here is, I see original Islam teaches that God gave to each messenger, a different Holy Book with somewhat different Rites. Nonetheless there is only one Religion, called Islam, which has been revealed to different people in different times, yet each time, God changed some of its religios laws or Rites, and when the Qaim comes He will bring a new Book and a new Islam. I am just saying, this is what Islam sources says. Regradless of what I believe.

I already told you that I had that hadith book, not all the volumes but I have the required volume. And mind you, you still did not tell me the source of this hadith. You giving me a book written a few centuries ago that quotes a hadith attributed to a man a 1000 years before the book was written is not valid. I respect it, but I dont accept it blindly.

But why should you even accept the Quran truely being from God? Just because it says so?
But if we are discussing view of Islam, all Hadithes are authentic as long as they have a witness from the Quran, and when they are compatible with Quran. Muhammad and Imam Baqer and Sadegh said, if a Hadith has a witness from Quran, it is to be accepted. All Hadithes I put here have a Quranic basis and we can find it coming from the Quran. If not, it is not to be accepted, regardless of the chains of narrators or not.

 

[Link]

What one understands from the following verse of Quran, please
[45:7]
تِلۡکَ اٰیٰتُ اللّٰہِ نَتۡلُوۡہَا عَلَیۡکَ بِالۡحَقِّ ۚ فَبِاَیِّ حَدِیۡثٍۭ بَعۡدَ اللّٰہِ وَ اٰیٰتِہٖ یُؤۡمِنُوۡنَ ﴿۷﴾
Regards

Unrelated to this.

 

[Link]

Our hadiths also says God doesn't send a Prophet nor a Messenger except with him are Twelve Captains (ie. he has an Ahlulbayt with exactly twelve other Leaders and Guides).

This is confirmed in Quran. What do you say about that? Did Baha'allah have an Ahlulbayt with Twelve Captains, because as Jesus by their fruits you shall know them!

 

[Link]

Ibn Ayash Al-Hafeth: Narrated from me Abu Ali Ahmad ibn Mohammad ibn Jaffar Al-Usooli Al-Basiri, narrated from Abdar Rahman ibn Saleh ibn Raeeda narrated from Hussain ibn Hameed ibn Rabee' narrated Al-Hamshi narrated from Mohammad Al-Khalif Al-Taataatari, narrated from Zidaan narrated from Salman:

he said I entered upon the Messenger of God one day so when he looked at me he said "O Salman God doesn't raise a Prophet or a Messenger except he makes for him Twelve Captains". Salman said: "O Messenger of God, I know this from the people of two books", The Messenger of God so then said "O Salman so do you know who are the my Twelve Captains then God chosen as Leaders after me?" He said "God and his Messenger know better", "God created me from his own light so he called me so I obeyed him, then he created Ali from my light, and called him so he obeyed him, from my light and Ali's light he created Fatima, so he called her so she obeyed him, and from my light and the light of Ali, and Fatima he created Al-Hassan and Al-Hussain. And he called them and they obeyed him. So God named us with five names from his names, so God is the Praised (Al-Mahmud) and I am Mohammad (praised),and God is Al-Ali (The Exalted) and this is Ali (exalted), and God is the Originator/Source and this is Fatima (the original nature/the origin/the source) , and God is the owner of goodness (Dul-Ehsan) and this Al-Hassan (The good) and God is the Beautiful/Beautified and this is Hussain (the beautiful). Then God created from us and from the light of Hussain nine leaders so he called them and they obeyed him before God created a vast sky or spread earth or water or wind or a moral, we were in his knowledge lights who glorified him and who listened to him and obeyed him."....

 

[firedragon]

I am only saying the Islamic view based on its sources (Quran and Hadith) as I see it. What i am demonstrating here is, I see original Islam teaches that God gave to each messenger, a different Holy Book with somewhat different Rites. Nonetheless there is only one Religion, called Islam, which has been revealed to different people in different times, yet each time, God changed some of its religios laws or Rites, and when the Qaim comes He will bring a new Book and a new Islam. I am just saying, this is what Islam sources says. Regradless of what I believe.

I agree about Islam mate. I am just trying to urge you not to keep mentioning various things like the Torah and Gospel etc etc. Because it doesn't assist your argument. I just am not in agreement with you because you are associating Rites/Rituals/Symbols or Shaira to the whole creed which you believe changes or renews with the Qaim.

But why should you even accept the Quran truely being from God? Just because it says so?

Haha. Another search for hypocrisy.

Alright. Rather than getting another argument about logical fallacies, brother, I accept the Quran because it is the most viable book that calls itself a "La raiba fee hi hudallil muttaqeen". If you want to debate my belief in the Quran please open a new thread and try applying any kind of criticism on the Quran. Lets discuss that. Fine.

And if you are to tell me that the Quran is equal to the book you are quoting then lets apply all kinds of criticism to both books and lets see if you wish which book is more reasonable. Let me tell you something. According to any of your scholars, the Quran is the Furqan for any of the ahadith. Anyone. Quran is the yardstick. So please be kind enough to discuss any book you quote from the merits of the same book rather than comparing with my belief in the Quran. Its not a valid argument. All of us maybe hypocrites, but its a very lowly argument. Tu Quoque fallacy. A lot of people seem to do this without understanding that its a demise of character but I must point that out.

So what do you wish to do ahi?

 

[Link]

By the way I'm going to make this very clear. According to our hadiths the Mahdi is not an attempt to establish justice on earth. All Chosen guides and leaders attempted to that, all Prophets and Messengers tried to do this.

He will establish justice on earth. This is what they teach, they don't mean his teachings will be ground for justice. They say he will rule the world and justice will be established.

From Quran perspective, All Messengers were sent to bring the whole world to justice and they were meant to be obeyed but were disobeyed. The Mahdi will actualize this dream, not lay the foundations for it which was the role of all Messengers and Prophets and Guides before him, he will literally establish it as it be successful, make this thing all Messengers came to prepare their people for happen.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Personally I love the title of the book Kithab I Íqán. Book of certification. Its written very well, although not in the form of a divine revelation but rather a Tafsir. There are flaws that I see in the book which shows that its good work, but its human work by Mr. Bahaullah who had the inherited understanding of the printed Quran he was holding at the time he wrote this book. He is definitely not receiving this from a divine source. I dont know if this is a platform to discuss that.

I see that is the difference, something I can not and will not attempt to change. Allah gives to all hearts, as Allah so chooses. I see in the Message of the Bab and Baha'u'llah what others see in the Message of Muhammad and the Quran, I see Allah.

I see no error, only my ignorance, I can never say Muhammad made a mistake if I see something I do not understand in the Quran, I see the bounty of submitting and asking for wisdom.

I choose that path, as I see when one perceives that they have a knowledge greater than God, then God has allowed that pride, it is its own punishment.

Life has shown me it is easy to choose this world and self over what it is Allah guides us towards.

Peace be with you. Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

By the way I'm going to make this very clear. According to our hadiths the Mahdi is not an attempt to establish justice on earth. All Chosen guides and leaders attempted to that, all Prophets and Messengers tried to do this.

He will establish justice on earth. This is what they teach, they don't mean his teachings will be ground for justice. They say he will rule the world and justice will be established.

From Quran perspective, All Messengers were sent to bring the whole world to justice and they were meant to be obeyed but were disobeyed. The Mahdi will actualize this dream, not lay the foundations for it which was the role of all Messengers and Prophets and Guides before him, he will literally establish it as it be successful, make this thing all Messengers came to prepare their people for happen.

I see this does happen. The way to peace was given and will unfold as it is already written. The longer the advice is rejected, the greater will be the event that triggers our acceptance of that given wisdom.

It is foretold in the Baha'i Writings that Islam will now suffer greatly for rejecting the promised Message of Peace. Syria is part of that prophecy.

I cannot change a heart, but I can choose to implement that message of peace.

Peace be with you

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

I see this does happen. The way to peace was given and will unfold as it is already written. The longer the advice is rejected, the greater will be the event that triggers our acceptance of that given wisdom.

It is foretold in the Baha'i Writings that Islam will now suffer greatly for rejecting the promised Message of Peace. Syria is part of that prophecy.

I cannot change a heart, but I can choose to implement that message of peace.

Peace be with you

Regards Tony

You are talking in the sense all Messengers were sent to establish justice. I mean our hadiths are clear that Imam Mahdi will establish it, not his followers, not his teachings, not a revelation, like he will lead and it will happen.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You are talking in the sense all Messengers were sent to establish justice. I mean our hadiths are clear that Imam Mahdi will establish it, not his followers, not his teachings, not a revelation, like he will lead and it will happen.

Yes, but if we read the hadithes carefully, the 12th Imam will live only for 7 years, and in the hadithes it is said, even after He dies, there will be more disbelief. So, while it is the role of Mahdi to establish peace, and justice, this would not happen in His lifetime. There is also a number of hadithes stating there will be Bida. Imams have said not everything they have said will happen as it was said , but God may choose to delay it (bida). Only coming of the Qaim is a promise which will not be changed, but every other event described in hadithes of mahdi can become bida, meaning, God could delay or pospond or even omit. There are also hadithes which could mean, the Mahdi will fill the earth with the knowledge, that will bring justice.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I agree about Islam mate. I am just trying to urge you not to keep mentioning various things like the Torah and Gospel etc etc. Because it doesn't assist your argument. I just am not in agreement with you because you are associating Rites/Rituals/Symbols or Shaira to the whole creed which you believe changes or renews with the Qaim.



Haha. Another search for hypocrisy.

Alright. Rather than getting another argument about logical fallacies, brother, I accept the Quran because it is the most viable book that calls itself a "La raiba fee hi hudallil muttaqeen". If you want to debate my belief in the Quran please open a new thread and try applying any kind of criticism on the Quran. Lets discuss that. Fine.

And if you are to tell me that the Quran is equal to the book you are quoting then lets apply all kinds of criticism to both books and lets see if you wish which book is more reasonable. Let me tell you something. According to any of your scholars, the Quran is the Furqan for any of the ahadith. Anyone. Quran is the yardstick. So please be kind enough to discuss any book you quote from the merits of the same book rather than comparing with my belief in the Quran. Its not a valid argument. All of us maybe hypocrites, but its a very lowly argument. Tu Quoque fallacy. A lot of people seem to do this without understanding that its a demise of character but I must point that out.

So what do you wish to do ahi?

Verse 3:7 says some of its verses are mutishabihat (allegorical, unclear), and none knows their interpretation, except those who are well-grounded in knowledge. According to Quran and hadithes, Muhammad and His successors are well grounded in knowledge. How could God leave a people with a Book, but does not provide its interpretation? Thus, the hadithes of prophet and imams must have sufficient information to interpret Quran. We cannot understand quran without hadithes of the prophet and imams, because no body can claim they he is well grounded in knowledge, and knows its interpretations.

rejecting the hadithes of imams, which clearly say Qaim comes with a new book, and a new islam does not seem compatible with Islam, because these hadithes are compatible with Quran. Quran also confirms Torah being from God, and no where Quran says the Torah got corrupted. Peace.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Ibn Ayash Al-Hafeth: Narrated from me Abu Ali Ahmad ibn Mohammad ibn Jaffar Al-Usooli Al-Basiri, narrated from Abdar Rahman ibn Saleh ibn Raeeda narrated from Hussain ibn Hameed ibn Rabee' narrated Al-Hamshi narrated from Mohammad Al-Khalif Al-Taataatari, narrated from Zidaan narrated from Salman:

he said I entered upon the Messenger of God one day so when he looked at me he said "O Salman God doesn't raise a Prophet or a Messenger except he makes for him Twelve Captains". Salman said: "O Messenger of God, I know this from the people of two books", The Messenger of God so then said "O Salman so do you know who are the my Twelve Captains then God chosen as Leaders after me?" He said "God and his Messenger know better", "God created me from his own light so he called me so I obeyed him, then he created Ali from my light, and called him so he obeyed him, from my light and Ali's light he created Fatima, so he called her so she obeyed him, and from my light and the light of Ali, and Fatima he created Al-Hassan and Al-Hussain. And he called them and they obeyed him. So God named us with five names from his names, so God is the Praised (Al-Mahmud) and I am Mohammad (praised),and God is Al-Ali (The Exalted) and this is Ali (exalted), and God is the Originator/Source and this is Fatima (the original nature/the origin/the source) , and God is the owner of goodness (Dul-Ehsan) and this Al-Hassan (The good) and God is the Beautiful/Beautified and this is Hussain (the beautiful). Then God created from us and from the light of Hussain nine leaders so he called them and they obeyed him before God created a vast sky or spread earth or water or wind or a moral, we were in his knowledge lights who glorified him and who listened to him and obeyed him."....

Very true. I like to see the Arabic of this hadith if you have it. But, I believe Muhammad was speaking about Himself and Messengers before Him. But as regards to the Bab, Bahais believe, He and His companions were 19. Bahaullah had 24, instead of 12, and in Bahai view this was prophecied in bible as twenty four elderly.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You are talking in the sense all Messengers were sent to establish justice. I mean our hadiths are clear that Imam Mahdi will establish it, not his followers, not his teachings, not a revelation, like he will lead and it will happen.

I see it was established as the reply by @InvestigateTruth offered.

The scriptures and history has proved that God allows men to rule with Justice.

God allows that rule to prosper only when the Justice is in tune with with the guidance Allah has given. When it departs from those laws and guidance, then a new age is needed and a new Messenger is given.

It is the same Holy Spirit in all those Messages. Thus they are all Christ, the Message is always Islam. It is men after earthly powers over true submission to Allah, that divide and conflict.

Baha'u'llah said an unbridled Nationalism would assist in devouring humamity. The way to prevent that given. Look at the world and listen how nationalism still feeds hate and conflicts. It can be seen that the greatest world power, which was building a global outlook, is now slipping back to an unbridled nationalism.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@Link

Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) narrated that someone asked Amirul Momineen (a.s.):

“.... O Amirul Momineen (a.s.), is there a second life before Qiyamat? And then death after that?
He replied: Yes, by Allah, during the period of Rajat there would be more disbelief.”


According to Hadithes, Qaim has died around the same time, Imam Hussein has returned (rajat).

Then it can be seen from these Hadithes, that when Qaim has come and died, then during the Period of Rajjat, there is even more disbelief.
Then how could it be said that, according to Hadithes, during the life of Qaim, the whole earth would be filled with Justice when there will be even more disbelief??