Second Coming

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer, if I understand you rightly, you are claiming Baha'u'llah to be Christ.

Baha'u'llah never claimed to be Jesus Christ. He claimed to be the return of the Spirit of God.

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.”
(Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 246)

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 246-249

“We, in truth, have sent Him Whom We aided with the Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ) that He may announce unto you this Light that hath shone forth from the horizon of the will of your Lord, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, and Whose signs have been revealed in the West. Set your faces towards Him (Bahá’u’lláh) on this Day which God hath exalted above all other days, and whereon the All-Merciful hath shed the splendour of His effulgent glory upon all who are in heaven and all who are on earth.” (Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 18)

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 17-23

“This is, truly, that which the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) hath announced, when He came with truth unto you, He with Whom the Jewish doctors disputed, till at last they perpetrated what hath made the Holy Spirit to lament, and the tears of them that have near access to God to flow….”
(Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 19)

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 17-23

“The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty.” (Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 84-85)

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 83-86

“Ye make mention of Me, and know Me not. Ye call upon Me, and are heedless of My Revelation…. O people of the Gospel! They who were not in the Kingdom have now entered it, whilst We behold you, in this day, tarrying at the gate. Rend the veils asunder by the power of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Bounteous, and enter, then, in My name My Kingdom. Thus biddeth you He Who desireth for you everlasting life…”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 91

“WE, verily, have come for your sakes, and have borne the misfortunes of the world for your salvation. Flee ye the One Who hath sacrificed His life that ye may be quickened? Fear God, O followers of the Spirit (Jesus), and walk not in the footsteps of every divine that hath gone far astray… Open the doors of your hearts. He Who is the Spirit (Jesus) verily, standeth before them.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 92

Baha'u'llah says WE because He is referring to Himself and Jesus Christ. Both of them have borne the misfortunes of the world for our salvation.

You're doing that for him. And he must have taught you to follow his teaching.

Baha'u'llah did not teach me anything. I taught myself by reading what He wrote.

If I understand you, you're saying the "another Comforter" Jesus said would be given to His disciples is Baha'ullah.
Am I right?

Yes, you are right. Jesus was a Comforter because He brought the Holy Spirit from God, which comforts us...
Baha'u'llah was another Comforter because He brought the Holy Spirit from God, which comforts us...

The "another Comforter" Jesus said would be with the disciples forever. Baha'u'llah died.

And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever, (John 14:16)

The Comforter is the Holy Spirit but the Comforter is a 'title' for the man who brought the Holy Spirit from God.
The Holy Spirit will be with the disciples forever.

This Spirit of truth Jesus said would be with the disciples forever. And the Apostle John also said the truth would be with the
Christian believers forever.

For the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever: (2 John 2)

The Comforter and the Spirit of truth are titles that refer to the same person who brought the Holy Spirit from God.
I believe that person was Baha'u'llah.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

[Feedmysheep]

So did Jesus die, but he is alive in Christ to Billions of followers today.

Yes Jesus died. But the eleven apostles and thousands of Jerusalem Jews said He rose from the dead.
Now you can disbelieve that. But 2,000 plus years of Christians saying it is true cannot be dismissed.

Now in your next post explain something to us. The seventh day Sabbath was considered by Jews for centuries to
be the most sacred and holy day of the week. Then suddenly within a month plus thousands of Jerusalem Jews changed.
They began to regard the day following the Sabbath day, the first day of the new week, as the most important day. They gathered on what they called "the Lord's day" to celebrate the rising of thier Savior Jesus from the dead.

What is your alternative explanation to such a drastic change in tradition in Jerusalem within such a short span of time?
My belief is that Jesus did perform the miracle of His resurrection.

Now I have learned to be careful on this Forum because it seems that to be persuasive as a Christian might be considered "preaching" which participants are now allowed to do. Let's put it this way. What is a problem to you is not a problem to me about the claim of Christ being
alive and wonderfully available to know albeit in a mysterious way.

Baha'u'llah is of the same One Holy Spirit and is just as alive today, as Jesus the Christ is.

Well, you said, that Jesus Christ is alive today. That's my confession. But close examination shows what you are saying is not what the New Testament is saying. The NT says "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45b). That is in Christ's physical resurrection He additionally BECAME in a form in which He could be dispensed into men to GIVE them Himself as divine life - a life giving Spirit.

The Bible recognizes TWO heads of two humanities.
1.) The first man Adam.
2.) The second man Jesus Christ (aka the last Adam) .

It does not recognize a THIRD Head of humanity, ie the man Baha'ullah. Nor does it say any OTHER man concludes the first order of humanity as a "last Adam" a concluding member. And it doesn't recognize besides Jesus Christ a "second man".

The first man is out of the earth, earthy; the second man is out of heaven.(1 Cor. 15:47)

So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul”; the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45)

The "second man" as a second head of all humanity that is regenerated by receiving the [ZOE] divine life of God is Christ, the resurrected one.
There is no room for a third great head of human beings. There is Adam and Christ.

And "the Lord" of which Second Corinthians speaks of is Jesus Christ as Lord.
For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, (2 Cor. 4:5a)

And the Lord is the Spirit - the Holy Spirit.
And the Lord is the Spirit; (2 Cor. 3:17a)

Do you have a answer besides wholesale dismissal of the Apostle Paul's thirteen some letters from being included in New Testament teaching?
If you don't then I understand why it is paramount for you to not want to include his epistles in the New Testament.
Actually, what Paul is testifying here is just an extension of what Jesus SAID in John's Gospel chapter 14,16.

This is the meaning of the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, the Alpha and Omega.

Regards Tony

Excuse me but Jesus said
Do not fear; I am the First and the Last And the living One; and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades. (See Rev. 1:17,18)

He did not say "Someone ELSE after Me will be that First and the Last." That is what you are teaching.
He did not say "Someone ELSE after Me will be the living One who became dead, and behold he will be alive and have the keys of death and of Hades."

I wrote a Scripture song to these verses. Some reading may want to hear it.

 

[Feedmysheep]

Baha'u'llah did not teach me anything. I taught myself by reading what He wrote.

Then you learned of the man. And he taught you. It is the same difference

Yes, you are right. Jesus was a Comforter because He brought the Holy Spirit from God, which comforts us...

John was careful to write that it was that resurrected Jesus who came comforting the frightened disciples.
And then He breath Himself into them telling them to "Receive the Holy Spirit".
The act demonstrating that He was imparting Himself as the Holy Spirit into them.

And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. The disciples therefore rejoiced at seeing the Lord.
Then Jesus said to them again, Peace be to you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.
And when He had said this, He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit. (John 20:20-22)

This Holy Spirit as "another Comforter" is to be with those who receive Him for eternity. (John 14:16)

This imparting of the Holy Spirit into man was the fulfillment of many promises Jesus made throughout the Gospel of John.
It is a climax of sorts that He would not leave them orphans but would come to them in His pneumatic form.

Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you. (John 14;17,18)

Jesus was another Comforter because He brought the Holy Spirit from God, which comforts us...

He IS the Holy Spirit. "And the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17)
It is no comfort for you to come along and announce that this is now to be disbelieved in favor of loving Baha'h'llah.
Rather than a comfort it amounts to saying the New Testament is a pack of lies.

You may spin it another way as if it is some deeper insight. But in actuality you are saying Christ lies and his apostles lied.

The Comforter is the Holy Spirit but the Comforter is a 'title' for the man who brought the Holy Spirit from God.
The Holy Spirit will be with the disciples forever.

God has many titles. Christ the Son of God has also a number of titles.
"Well its a title. Its not Him Himself" will not work.

The Comforter and the Spirit of truth are titles that refer to the same person who brought the Holy Spirit from God.
I believe that person was Baha'u'llah.

I don't believe that Jesus was teaching that some OTHER man after Him would be the Holy Spirit.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes Jesus died. But the eleven apostles and thousands of Jerusalem Jews said He rose from the dead.
Now you can disbelieve that. But 2,000 plus years of Christians saying it is true cannot be dismissed.

Jesus as the Christ did rise. The flesh body of Jesus did not, but the spiritual soul of Jesus, born of the Holy Spirit did.

2000 years of hope that the flesh will rise does not make it a fact that flesh will rise. In fact, science will negate such superstitions. The thousands that experienced this, would have acknowledged that the flesh amounts to nothing, it is the Spirit that is Life.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Now in your next post explain something to us. The seventh day Sabbath was considered by Jews for centuries to
be the most sacred and holy day of the week. Then suddenly within a month plus thousands of Jerusalem Jews changed.
They began to regard the day following the Sabbath day, the first day of the new week, as the most important day. They gathered on what they called "the Lord's day" to celebrate the rising of thier Savior Jesus from the dead.

What is your alternative explanation to such a drastic change in tradition in Jerusalem within such a short span of time?
My belief is that Jesus did perform the miracle of His resurrection

You could consider why so many changed these practices with the Messages of Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

The explanation is that they embraced the New Messenger from God, and partook of the New Heaven and tye New Earth.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Excuse me but Jesus said
Do not fear; I am the First and the Last And the living One; and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades. (See Rev. 1:17,18)

He did not say "Someone ELSE after Me will be that First and the Last." That is what you are teaching.
He did not say "Someone ELSE after Me will be the living One who became dead, and behold he will be alive and have the keys of death and of Hades."

This is the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit speaking as the voice of God. This is not the flesh Jesus.

This is all the Names of God speaking from the beginning until the end, tye first voice of God and the Last voice of God, the Alpha and Omega.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

2000 years of hope that the flesh will rise does not make it a fact that flesh will rise. In fact, science will negate such superstitions. The thousands that experienced this, would have acknowledged that the flesh amounts to nothing, it is the Spirit that is Life.

Jesus makes it very clear that the physical body is not important, that only spiritual life is important.

Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

As such it is very odd that Christians place so much importance on the resurrection of the physical body of Jesus.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit speaking as the voice of God. This is not the flesh Jesus.

Rev. 1:17,18 is not anyone speaking as the voice of God. It is the author of Revelation speaking.

AI Overview
Learn more…

The Book of Revelation was written by John the Apostle, also known as John of Patmos, John the Revelator, John the Divine, or John the Theologian:

Identity
The author of Revelation identifies himself as John four times in the book. The book was written around 96 CE in Asia Minor.

 

[Feedmysheep]

This is the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit speaking as the voice of God. This is not the flesh Jesus.

The New Testament locates Jesus Christ in two places.
1.) At the right hand of God as the God-man interceding for His believers.
Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died and, rather, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God,
who also intercedes for us. (Romans 8:34)
2.) As the indwelling One who is Christ Himself - a title enterchangeable with "the Spirit of God" / "the Spirit of Christ" / "Christ" / "the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead"

. . . if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him.

But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness.

And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you. (Rom. 8:9b-11)

The one at the right hand of God interceding for the saints is MAN. That is not half a man or almost a man. But He is "the MAN Christ Jesus."
For there is one God and one Mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (1 Tim. 2:5)

Your teaching is that He is LESS than a man.
Your teaching is that He is not QUITE a full man.

The NT teaching is that He is a man who will never for eternity put off His full humanity.
As for His body it says it is "the body of His glory" - a glorified body. And in His full salvation He will not strip the saved of their bodies
but transfigure their bodies to be like His glorious body.

we eagerly await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of His glory, according to His operation by which He is able even to subject all things to Himself. (Phil. 3:20b,21)

Your concept of salvation is incomplete as is your teaching of an incomplete Son of God / Son of Man - Jesus.
Your concept of the stripping away of the physical body is not the New Testament's teaching of "the redemption of our body" through tranfiguration and glorification. The body of our humiliation is to be transfigured into an eternal body like His in glorification.

And not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan in ourselves, eagerly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body. (Rom. 8:23)

 

[Feedmysheep]

As such it is very odd that Christians place so much importance on the resurrection of the physical body of Jesus.

It is not odd to include in our belief of full salvation the resurrection of the body.

It is odd to you because the resurrection of Christ is odd to your unbelief which you learned from Baha'u'llah's teaching.
This oddity is to be expected and typical. Your Savior is incomplete so your concept of salvation is also incomplete.

You spin this incompleteness to make it appear as more profound.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is not odd to include in our belief of full salvation the resurrection of the body.

It is odd for the very reason I already stated.

Jesus makes it very clear that the physical body is not important, that only spiritual life is important.
As such it is very odd that Christians place so much importance on the resurrection of the physical body of Jesus.

Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

It is also odd because all physical bodies will die eventually, so placing so much importance on a physical body makes no logical sense.
It is also odd because resurrection of a physical body has nothing to do with salvation. It is the soul that is saved, not the body.

It is odd to you because the resurrection of Christ is odd to your unbelief which you learned from Baha'u'llah's teaching.
This oddity is to be expected and typical. Your Savior is incomplete so your concept of salvation is also incomplete.

Baha'u'llah is not my Savior. Jesus was the Savior. The resurrection is completely unnecessary to make Jesus the Savior. All that was needed was the cross sacrifice. The resurrection stories were written decades after Jesus died because people could not accept the fact that Jesus died on the cross.

AI Overview
Learn more…

The Gospels of the Bible, which contain the resurrection stories of Jesus, were written decades after Jesus's resurrection:

• Mark: Written around 70 AD, about 40 years after Jesus's time
• Matthew and Luke: Written around 80 AD, about 50 years after Jesus's time
• John: Written around 95 AD, about 65 years after Jesus's time
• Scholars believe: The Gospels were not written by eyewitnesses to the resurrection

 

[Trailblazer]

He IS the Holy Spirit. "And the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17)
It is no comfort for you to come along and announce that this is now to be disbelieved in favor of loving Baha'h'llah.
Rather than a comfort it amounts to saying the New Testament is a pack of lies.

You may spin it another way as if it is some deeper insight. But in actuality you are saying Christ lies and his apostles lied.

The Lord is God, but the Holy Spirit is not God. The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God. God is like the Sun and the Holy Spirit is like the rays of the Sun that emanated from God. God sent the Holy Spirit to Jesus and to Baha'u'llah. After that Jesus and Baha'u'llah brought the Holy Spirit to humanity.

I just noticed that I made a typo in my post but I just went back and corrected it. I should have said:

Yes, you are right. Jesus was a Comforter because He brought the Holy Spirit from God, which comforts us...
Baha'u'llah was another Comforter because He brought the Holy Spirit from God, which comforts us...

God has many titles. Christ the Son of God has also a number of titles.
"Well its a title. Its not Him Himself" will not work.

The Comforter and the Spirit of truth are titles for Baha'u'llah but they are also the Holy Spirit.

I don't believe that Jesus was teaching that some OTHER man after Him would be the Holy Spirit.

I never claimed that Baha'u'llah was the Holy Spirit. I said that He brought the Holy Spirit.