Secular Morality and Meaning

[linwood]

I like the thought of being happy. I want to be happy. I imagine most people do. But as for why I should want to be happy or why I ought to be happy, I have no idea. If someone asked me, I would be completely lost for words. I really have no clue. If life is ultimately meaningless and exists for no purpose, why attach meaning or purpose where it previously didn't exist? What's the point? What difference does it make? Why bother? Is it because it makes for a harmonious and peaceful society? If so, then the question I would ask is: why care about harmony and peace? If some folks reply because they're better than other alternatives, the question becomes: why care about which alternatives are better than other alternatives?

You answered all those questions before you asked them.

"I like the thought of being happy. I want to be happy. I imagine most people do."

If we have to "be" we might as well make our state of "being" as enjoyable as possible.

I understand it seems rather trivial after decades of immediate cosmic importance but it is what it is.

 

[linwood]

If this was truly our one and only shot and there was no real point to assigning purpose or meaning to our lives beyond just the mere desire to, I would probably just end it. I wouldn't see any point to my life and trying to assign value or meaning would be pointless.

Truly?

You would end this fantastic experience just because you discovered it has no meaning beyond being an experience?

You see no value in the experience itself?

 

[Matthew78]

It's not about assigning value, it's about perceiving value.

If you've got a kitten, and you get a lot of joy with playing with the kitten, taking care of it, seeing it be content, and it brightens your day when you come home from work and see your kitten, then the kitten is valuable to you whether or not you've consciously assigned value to it or not.

So you are saying, then, that we have a subconscious habit or innate habit of assuming or just accepting things as valuable?

A happy person perceives their life to be valuable because through their life, they continue experiencing happiness, which is enjoyable in and of itself. A happy person does not ask another happy person why they bother with happiness. It's something that, when had, is already understood.

So it's something that's assumed and just taken for granted, then?

You've already answered your own question. In the OP, you said you want to be happy. Here, you said you struggle with apathy and depression. Why not the reverse? Why not say you want to be unhappy? Wouldn't it be unreasonable for a person to say they struggle with happiness and contentment, and seek to fix that?

Seriously, I'm confused; how did I answer my own question? I said I want to be happy because it feels good to be happy but I don't know why I ought to want to be happy or why I ought to want to be unhappy, depressed, or apathetic. I would like to be happy but I don't see much point to pursuing it if, like I put it, we are just the sum of our cells.

Happiness is one thing that is not consciously achieved simply for the sake of achieving something else. A happy person does not use happiness merely as a tool to achieve something else- happiness itself is the end result. Biologically, happiness provides a greater chance for living and producing, so it's a means to an end. It's a successful means, and humans desire it because, when had, it is valued for its own sake.

So it's just something more or less innate? We innately desire happiness so that makes it inherently valuable? Is that what you're trying to explain to me?

It's an axiom; self-evident. It's like in medicine, the axiom is that health is desirable. All of medicine is based on making people healthier. Happiness is inherently desirable by basically everyone because it's a biological tool that our species, and many animals, use to direct organisms to continue living. When working correctly and not abused, happiness is the body's tool for telling someone they are on the right track.

Okay, this analogy helps. I think I understand it better. We innately desire happiness because it's conductive to our well-being and survival.

 

[Matthew78]

Truly?

You would end this fantastic experience just because you discovered it has no meaning beyond being an experience?

You see no value in the experience itself?

Yes! I would absolutely end it if there was no objective meaning or purpose to life. I don't see why the experience would hold any value for me. If you find life fantastic, then I'm seriously happy for you. If there's no meaning or purpose beyond the sum of our cells and whatever emerges, collectively, from our cells, to heck with it! I see no point in assigning meaning or purpose to my own life.

 

[linwood]

Yes! I would absolutely end it if there was no objective meaning or purpose to life. I don't see why the experience would hold any value for me. If you find life fantastic, then I'm seriously happy for you. If there's no meaning or purpose beyond the sum of our cells and whatever emerges, collectively, from our cells, to heck with it! I see no point in assigning meaning or purpose to my own life.

You better think of something quick then!!

 

[blackout]

Yes! I would absolutely end it if there was no objective meaning or purpose to life. I don't see why the experience would hold any value for me. If you find life fantastic, then I'm seriously happy for you. If there's no meaning or purpose beyond the sum of our cells and whatever emerges, collectively, from our cells, to heck with it! I see no point in assigning meaning or purpose to my own life.

This is your birthright,
perhaps even your PURPOSE,
as a god of the Universe.

 

[Matthew78]

You better think of something quick then!!

Why, though? I'm on a quest to find meaning and purpose; I'm hoping to conclude that life really is here for a purpose and has been imbued with meaning.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Why, though? I'm on a quest to find meaning and purpose; I'm hoping to conclude that life really is here for a purpose and has been imbued with meaning.

And if not?

 

[Penumbra]

So you are saying, then, that we have a subconscious habit or innate habit of assuming or just accepting things as valuable?

Yes, but often they are valuable for means of survival and flourishing.

So it's something that's assumed and just taken for granted, then?

No, because the reason for it being there is understood. It's fairly straightforward, although the details are complex. We are programmed towards certain behaviors because those behaviors are conducive to our survival and flourishing. For the most part, humans are happy when they find food, or fall in love, or achieve a safe and productive social position, or acquire resources for survival and comfort, or sense pleasurable things, and various combination of those things and others.

Seriously, I'm confused; how did I answer my own question? I said I want to be happy because it feels good to be happy but I don't know why I ought to want to be happy or why I ought to want to be unhappy, depressed, or apathetic. I would like to be happy but I don't see much point to pursuing it if, like I put it, we are just the sum of our cells.

You answered it again!

You ought to want to be happy because it feels good to be happy (and because happiness is a tool that the body tells you you're on the right track for survival and flourishing).

Nobody is forcing you to be happy, or to want to be happy. You're wanting that all by yourself. You could deliberately pursue unhappiness instead, but you probably won't do that because it doesn't make sense to do so. So your position here isn't sound- you want happiness but don't find it meaningful.

The answer is that it's meaningful if you want it, and you already said you do.

So it's just something more or less innate? We innately desire happiness so that makes it inherently valuable? Is that what you're trying to explain to me?

Okay, this analogy helps. I think I understand it better. We innately desire happiness because it's conductive to our well-being and survival.

Yes.

 

[Matthew78]

You ought to want to be happy because it feels good to be happy (and because happiness is a tool that the body tells you you're on the right track for survival and flourishing).

It does feel good but I don't see why I should pursue happiness just because it feels good. So what if it feels good? This is what I keep asking myself.

Nobody is forcing you to be happy, or to want to be happy. You're wanting that all by yourself. You could deliberately pursue unhappiness instead, but you probably won't do that because it doesn't make sense to do so. So your position here isn't sound- you want happiness but don't find it meaningful.

I don't find it meaningful to assign purpose or value where none previously existed. I'm tormented by questions like the ones I have kept posting in this thread. I just don't see why it matters. I would like it to matter and I'm hoping to conclude that it does matter in an ultimate teleological sense but if there is no such teleology, I can't see any point.

Even if people disagree with me, I hope they understand why I feel so frustrated.

 

[Penumbra]

It does feel good but I don't see why I should pursue happiness just because it feels good. So what if it feels good? This is what I keep asking myself.

I don't find it meaningful to assign purpose or value where none previously existed. I'm tormented by questions like the ones I have kept posting in this thread. I just don't see why it matters. I would like it to matter and I'm hoping to conclude that it does matter in an ultimate teleological sense but if there is no such teleology, I can't see any point.

Even if people disagree with me, I hope they understand why I feel so frustrated.

Can you describe a metaphysical framework where a life would matter in the ultimate teleological sense?

This is why I view value as a more sensible concept than meaning. It's not that I view life as not having meaning relative to a possible world that does have meaning; it's that I view the concept of meaning in this context to be inherently impossible. It's a matter of asking the wrong question, imo.

 

[Matthew78]

Can you describe a metaphysical framework where a life would matter in the ultimate teleological sense?

I'm not sure I know of entire metaphysical frameworks but there seem, to me, to be some beliefs which offer promising potential. I've read about deism and panendeism. I really like these beliefs. These beliefs seem to offer the possibility that life is imbued with teleological meaning. I'm not sure that there are worldviews or even whole philosophies that are deistic or panendeistic.

This is why I view value as a more sensible concept than meaning. It's not that I view life as not having meaning relative to a possible world that does have meaning; it's that I view the concept of meaning in this context to be inherently impossible. It's a matter of asking the wrong question, imo.

I think I understand your view. I respect your opinion.

 

[idav]

Can you describe a metaphysical framework where a life would matter in the ultimate teleological sense?

Yes using foundations from buddhism and taoism.

This is why I view value as a more sensible concept than meaning. It's not that I view life as not having meaning relative to a possible world that does have meaning; it's that I view the concept of meaning in this context to be inherently impossible. It's a matter of asking the wrong question, imo.

I can agree that value is important and can find inherent value in life as well as existence itself.

 

[Penumbra]

Yes using foundations from buddhism and taoism.

Can you clarify as to how foundations of Buddhism and Taoism make life matter in the ultimate teleological sense?

 

[idav]

Can you clarify as to how foundations of Buddhism and Taoism make life matter in the ultimate teleological sense?

I know that they don't normally get into a god but the Tao and Nirvana seem to be some metaphysical views of existence that isn't easy to explain. The Tao being unnameable of course. Considering The Way (tao) and plugging in a pantheistic view of the universe, everything ends up with purpose especially things that use energy heading back towards a Nirvana sort of existence. In a Buddhist framework, the things we do are important means to getting to these final stages of existence otherwise your stuck in a loop you can't find your way out of until The Way is finally achieved.

 

[Sententia]

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The problem is that I see no purpose or meaning to life from a secular viewpoint. If we are just the sum of our cells, then what's the purpose to life? There is no objective purpose or meaning as far as I can tell. Some might say that the purpose is to be happy. But if I was asked questions like 1.) why bother to be happy? and 2.) what difference would it make if I was happy or not?, I wouldn't know what to say.

Why do you need an objective purpose?

If you're talking about your own subjective life, then why isn't it enough to have your own subjective purpose? Maybe whatever purpose you come up with doesn't have objective, universal meaning... so what? Are you so important that you think you need to have cosmic significance?

In all likelihood, the universe probably doesn't care a whit about you at all. It's up to you to come up with your own meaning for yourself.

I like this way how it was put. Unfortunately, it's made so many rounds of the internet, I don't know its original source:

The world is meaningless, there is no God or gods, there are no morals, the universe is not moving inexorably towards any higher purpose. All meaning is man-made, so make your own and make it well. Do not treat life as a way to pass the time until you die.

Do not try to "find yourself", you must make yourself. Choose what you want to find meaningful and live, create, love, hate, cry, destroy, fight and die for it. Do not let your life and your values and you actions slip easily into any mold, other that that which you create for yourself, and say with conviction, "This is who I make myself".

Do not give in to hope. Remember that nothing you do has any significance beyond that with which imbue it. Whatever you do, do it for its own sake. When the universe looks on with indifference, laugh, and shout back, "**** You!". Rembember that to fight meaninglessness is futile, but fight anyway, in spite of and because of its futility.

The world may be empty of meaning, but it is a blank canvas on which to paint meanings of your own. Live deliberately. You are free.

Would it make a difference to you if you were happy? If so, then for you, that's reason enough to be happy. But you're only making decisions for yourself anyhow.

 

[Matthew78]

Why do you need an objective purpose?

Otherwise, I don't see the point to my life and others' life as well. I wonder why we all bother to live. But I can't speak for others so I'll confine my remarks to myself.

If you're talking about your own subjective life, then why isn't it enough to have your own subjective purpose?

I wouldn't see any point to it. I don't know why I would even bother.

Maybe whatever purpose you come up with doesn't have objective, universal meaning... so what? Are you so important that you think you need to have cosmic significance?

I don't think I'm any more important than anyone else. I just don't see any point in attaching value or meaning to something that lacks value or meaning otherwise. If life has no objective value or meaning, I don't see what reasons there are for assigning purpose or value to our lives.

In all likelihood, the universe probably doesn't care a whit about you at all. It's up to you to come up with your own meaning for yourself.

Would it make a difference to you if you were happy? If so, then for you, that's reason enough to be happy. But you're only making decisions for yourself anyhow.

I wouldn't see much point to being happy. But that's just me. I have been playing devil's advocate to see how others would respond, hoping that maybe someone might come up with answer that I like, that I could adopt as my own. While I gratefully appreciate the input that's been given, I haven't seen any responses that I find sastisfying. So, I'm resolved to keep searching, to keep reading, to keep educating myself in hopes that I find an answer that gives me hope!

 

[Matthew78]

I want to thank everyone who is responded so far. I appreciate the responses people participating in this thread have made. I think I understand, better, what some of the people here think and why.

 

[idav]

I wouldn't see much point to being happy. But that's just me.

When considering the extremes you can see why people do not prefer intense pain and misery. Kinda why hell is such an interesting concept. To me being happy is being content and its harder to be content in harsher extremes.