Sensitivity and younger generations

[Samael_Khan]

This argument has been used to justify countless acts of oppression and violence against political dissidents throughout the world. How do more rights for minorities and fewer opportunities to oppress and discriminate against people not equal more freedom for everyone?

Rights for minorities and discrimination isn't what I am talking about. It is about how far does one control society to enforce those rules.

For the record, Stalin did not start out as a progressive, he started out as a political radical who organized bank robberies in order to support the Bolsheviks living in exile from Czarist persecution. There was nothing about Stalin's political methods that would have put him even in the vicinity of contemporary progressivism, let alone modern social liberalism or social democracy.

Stalin supported the Bolsheviks. The Bolsheviks were communists which was a progressive movement at the time because it was socialist. The fact that he came into power, against Lenin's wishes, and took over the party is case in point. He used communism as an excuse for his actions whether they were supported by progressives at the time or not. He usurped the movement and disguised his rule as communism. Conservatives, who naturally don't like progressive thought, would be outspoken against him because they would be especially sensitive to his actions as he is the enemy. Or hopefully they would.

 

[SomeRandom]

I've often heard the saying "If you're not liberal at age 20, you have no heart. If you're not conservative by age 30, you have no brain." On the other hand, youth are often chided as being more gullible, more easily led, and more vulnerable to peer pressure.

Huh. Most of my family would be left leaning in an American context. My uncle is basically a “commie” lol
Though I also have some very traditionalist uncles too
But America seems more right in general, to my eyes anyway.

I don't think they're a cult. They're just far-right conservative traditionalists. 100 years ago, they would have been considered "mainstream." That's where a lot of liberals and youth can seem confused, because they react as if the alt-right is something that just popped in out of nowhere, as if it's brand new and something never seen before.

Ehh, I’ve watched some of their content (through a filter of watching them “cope” to be fair) I will respectfully disagree. They don’t seem to care about policy, they’re not even traditionalists really. All they want is to “own/trigger the libs.” And they slavishly devote their entire personality around Trump. It’s a cult of personality. The Qanon folks are another breed entirely though
And the Alt right are basically just flavours of neo Nazi/fascist. I know for a fact they’re not new.

Usually, if someone posts a video, I'd rather just read a short synopsis.

Fair enough. I just watched Shaun dissect the 1776 report. It’s kind of weird that a Brit seems to inform me of American politics. But you guys do seem to make it a spectacle, no offence.

I watched Happy Days in the 70s - at least the first few seasons. It started going in a different direction and started getting boring though. I never did watch That 70s Show. Happy Days came out on the heels of the success of the film American Graffiti, which was actually set in 1962, but still had the flavor of the 50s about it. It was when the Boomers were still in high school - carefree and innocent - before the tumult and political upheaval that they would see in the coming years. By the time the movie came out in 1973, America had changed drastically. By the way, Happy Days wasn't the only 50s revival show around that time. There was another show called Sons and Daughters, as well as a variety show called "Sha-Na-Na." But disco was also a thing at the time.

Huh interesting. I remember having to watch American Graffiti for English class once. I saw some reruns of Happy Days as a kid.

 

[Kooky]

Rights for minorities and discrimination isn't what I am talking about. It is about how far does one control society to enforce those rules.

Do you honestly, genuinely believe that what was wrong about Stalinism was that it was founded on an excessive enforcement of anti-discrimination legislation?
I have strong doubts, but I want to confirm that we're actually on the same page here.

Stalin supported the Bolsheviks. The Bolsheviks were communists which was a progressive movement at the time because it was socialist. The fact that he came into power, against Lenin's wishes, and took over the party is case in point. He used communism as an excuse for his actions whether they were supported by progressives at the time or not. He usurped the movement and disguised his rule as communism. Conservatives, who naturally don't like progressive thought, would be outspoken against him because they would be especially sensitive to his actions as he is the enemy. Or hopefully they would.

Just to put this argument back on track, your original argument was that too much progressivism would result in a society similar to Stalin's Soviet Union, correct?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

People watching the 1983 movie Wargames might get the idea that it was a common thing for a high school kid to have his own computer, modem, VCR and TV in his room. But most kids at that time would not have had that kind of a set-up, unless they came from a very wealthy family.

I still remember computers being uncommon, something wealthier people had, amd it being something special when there was a chance to use one (I also started learning how to type on a typewriter).
And I remember thinking smart phones wouldn't take off because it's phone with a dumb and weak computer. Amd that my first roommates and I would split a landline bill. Then we learned it would be cheaper for us to get our first cell phones.
I remembered dot matrix printers, and was totally amazed when I learned of 3D printing in college. Fax machines and mail to email. Amd we don't have to worry about long distance or roaming fees or anytime weekend/evening cell phone minutes.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Ehh, I’ve watched some of their content (through a filter of watching them “cope” to be fair) I will respectfully disagree. They don’t seem to care about policy, they’re not even traditionalists really. All they want is to “own/trigger the libs.” And they slavishly devote their entire personality around Trump. It’s a cult of personality. The Qanon folks are another breed entirely though
And the Alt right are basically just flavours of neo Nazi/fascist. I know for a fact they’re not new.

Look up Andrew Jackson's supporters amd rallies. They got compared to Trump's supporters quite a bit.
Amd basically the West as a whole is Left compared to America.

 

[Kooky]

Look up Andrew Jackson's supporters amd rallies. They got compared to Trump's supporters quite a bit.
Amd basically the West as a whole is Left compared to America.

I don't know, Trump's bigotry would be read as fairly mainstream in most European polities.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't know, Trump's bigotry would be read as fairly mainstream in most European polities.

Not really. They tend to protect rights that Trump threw out the window.

 

[Kooky]

Not really. They tend to protect rights that Trump threw out the window.

Can you give an example? I'm honestly at a loss as to what you are talking about.

 

[SomeRandom]

Look up Andrew Jackson's supporters amd rallies. They got compared to Trump's supporters quite a bit.
Amd basically the West as a whole is Left compared to America.

Well, apart from places like Poland, I suppose you’re right.

I remember when Trump first took power my cousin (who is a history teacher) half jokingly compared him to Hitler, just without the orator skills. Now he’s being mocked as a failed fascist. It’s been an....interesting couple of months, that’s for sure.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And they slavishly devote their entire personality around Trump

Actually they're very divided over Trump because of Trump's closeness with Jews and Israel policy.

 

[SomeRandom]

Actually they're very divided over Trump because of Trump's closeness with Jews and Israel policy.

Whoa really? Wow lol

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Whoa really? Wow lol

Yes, because many of them hate Jews, like the guy who shot up the Tree of Life synagogue.

 

[SomeRandom]

Yes, because many of them hate Jews, like the guy who shot up the Tree of Life synagogue.

Oh yeah, that’s true. Sad.
It does make me wonder about milquetoast conservative types. I mean surely they would not appreciate such bigotry, right?
I mean I keep hearing on the news that the American Right isn’t actually fond of Trump because he basically brought in a bunch of radicals. But I’m not American so I don’t know.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Oh yeah, that’s true. Sad.
It does make me wonder about milquetoast conservative types. I mean surely they would not appreciate such bigotry, right?
I mean I keep hearing on the news that the American Right isn’t actually fond of Trump because he basically brought in a bunch of radicals. But I’m not American so I don’t know.

Which ones? Before Trump, the Republican Party, like under Bush jr, was led by Neoconservatives who pulled us into a forever war and give us the Patriot Act nightmare. Trump's popularity among the base is more grassroots and is populist in orientation (no, not racist as there's actually a large number of non-white people who support him, especially black men and also a lot of LGBT people). This tends to make the elitist establishment of both parties angry and ok guard, since it disrupts their business as usual (running the country into the ground).

The Alt-Right supported him at first because they taught he would back them. But he doesn't and he didn't. So they don't like him now. QAnon is kind of its own thing.

 

[SomeRandom]

Which ones? Before Trump, the Republican Party, like under Bush jr, was led by Neoconservatives who pulled us into a forever war and give us the Patriot Act nightmare. Trump's popularity among the base is more grassroots and is populist in orientation (no, not racist as there's actually a large number of non-white people who support him, especially black men and also a lot of LGBT people). This tends to make the elitist establishment of both parties angry and ok guard, since it disrupts their business as usual (running the country into the ground).

The Alt-Right supported him at first because they taught he would back them. But he doesn't and he didn't. So they don't like him now. QAnon is kind of its own thing.

I think the news mentioned the Tea Party or the Neocons? I’m not terribly familiar with the lexicon, my apologies.

I know Trump had support from people of all sorts of backgrounds. Big tent strategy they called it, right?
Maybe that’s what the news was referring to. The established conservatives not really happy with “pandering to minorities.”
(That’s just what I’ve seen some say. Those are not my words.)

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I think the news mentioned the Tea Party or the Neocons? I’m not terribly familiar with the lexicon, my apologies.

I know Trump had support from people of all sorts of backgrounds. Big tent strategy they called it, right?
Maybe that’s what the news was referring to. The established conservatives not really happy with “pandering to minorities.”
(That’s just what I’ve seen some say. Those are not my words.)

The Tea Party was another grassroots thing from the early 2010s. About the minorities comment, I don't know anything about that.

 

[SomeRandom]

The Tea Party was another grassroots thing from the early 2010s. About the minorities comment, I don't know anything about that.

Fair enough, I feel like I keep getting conflicting information about the American Conservative party. Often from conservatives themselves. Maybe that’s just because I’m an outsider and have to rely on various sources

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Fair enough, I feel like I keep getting conflicting information about the American Conservative party. Often from conservatives themselves. Maybe that’s just because I’m an outsider and have to rely on various sources

That's probably it. It can hard to get a clear view of what's going on in another country when you're not there yourself. You're at the mercy of others and their reports.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Can you give an example? I'm honestly at a loss as to what you are talking about.

Transgender rights gained under Obama were rescinded by Trump. We have our full rights granted at the federal level in many countries. People being able to learn and teach at our universities was hindered. Making it a policy to cage children. And they hold people accountable for their words in other countries. That one would really get Trump in trouble.

 

[SomeRandom]

That's probably it. It can hard to get a clear view of what's going on in another country when you're not there yourself. You're at the mercy of others and their reports.

True