Setting The Bible Reader Straight

[3rdAngel]

You do not seem to understand the fact that the Earth is never described as a sphere in the Bible. All verses describing the Earth only describe it in terms that apply to a Flat Earth.

Yet here you are not able to prove from the scripture that the earth is flat? Amazing. All I see here is you trying to twist scripture to make it say things that it does not say.

 

[sooda]

I guess like you were trying to claim earlier JESUS drank no water when he was fasting in the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights. But seriously back to your post. NO the bible says no such thing. That is your faulty interpretation of the scriptures. Where is the scripture that says that the earth is flat? There is none.

Its appropriately vague, but poetic.

 

[3rdAngel]

That is a little better. A sphere may be "like a circle", but it is not a circle. There is a Hebrew word that works as a sphere. They had balls back then. Yet a term for a flat Earth was used instead. That implies a Flat Earth. By the way, so did Satan showing Jesus the entire Earth from a high point. You used a weak "Roman world" excuse. But again, that implies that Jesus was not divine.

Read the context of the scripture that were provided for you. They say that God sits, as a judge or governor upon his throne, upon the circle of the earth; or, above the circle; far above this round earth, even in the highest heavens; from whence he looketh down upon the earth, where men appear to him like grasshoppers. He alludes to one that looks down upon the earth below him from some high place. This is the context. It is not saying anywhere in the context or in the scripture you have provided anywhere that the earth if flat. If you disagree please show me where it says in any of those scriptures that the earth is flat. You cannot can you. If you cannot why do you pretend that the scriptures are saying things that they are not saying?

Now may I ask you a question? Do you believe that there is a God? If not can you prove scientifically or otherwise that there is no God being an athiest? If you cannot prove that there is no God does this not concern you that you could be wrong and if you are wrong does this not worry you that maybe you could actually find yourself fighting with God who we all must stand before come judgment day? Just interested to see what you think and if you can provide an honest answer. You do not have to answer these questions if you do not want to. Maybe they can be for you to think about for yourself and answer.

Thank you for the discussion

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

The Bible is true in the sense of the literature.

This doesn't mean anything as far as I can tell. Please break this down further in some way to make it actually mean something. "true in the sense of the literature?" What does that MEAN?

We have many figures of speech and they may imply a rule of thumb or an estimate.

But then, even you would have to admit that "estimates" or idioms like these your are describing are not "truth." They simply aren't. They may hint at, as you said, some "rule of thumb" - but they are very grossly underestimating approximations of various situations - they are not "the truth" of those situations.

Wooden literalism isn't necessarily the correct way to take the Bible. Best to look at the context and how listeners would understand it.

Once again, none of that is what I would put the label "truth" on at all. As soon as there is an aspect of subjectivity to a thing, it loses any possibility of being objective "truth." This should be entirely obvious, and yet people label The Bible "true," very glibly, all the time.

But the faith was central to the point being made, not the seed.

I have no idea whatsoever what this text was in response of reference to. I read back over both of our posts several times and still can't make heads or tails of it.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

With the wise shouting it from the mountain top

So you shout that it is OBVIOUS there cannot be any god?

Especially the impossible god of the bible? Impossible Things do not exist.

Bible god? Is both "All Good" and "Created All Evil" and worse-- uses evil torture to get and keep followers? Impossible. Does not exist.

Bible god? Is also One, but is Three, but is ... what? Impossible Thing. Does Not Exist.

Christian Bible God? Is 100% Human, but 100% God, but fully human but fully god but... sacrificed himself to get a loophole in the rules he himself created to appease himself because a rib-woman ate a Magic Fruit fooled by a talking snake. Impossible. Does Not Exist.

So yeah-- Wise Men Shout It From The Mountaintop-- Bible God Does Not exist as written.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

What is false? I went through each of your scriptures earlier and posted them all and none of them said what you were claiming they were saying. What do you claim is not true and why can you not prove what you claim? Perhaps it is because you cannot.

You cannot actually read, obviously.

SHOW ME A BIBLE VERSE DESCRIBING A BALL-SHAPED EARTH: you cannot.

100% of the Bible describes a FLAT PLATE.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Nice rebuttal name calling ... wow

Anyhow probably said all that needs to be said here. Thanks for the conversation.

"Conversation"? You mean your false "explainations" of what is actually written?

Your cries of "IsNotIsNotIsNotIsNotIsNotIsNotIsNotIsNotIsNot"?

okaaaaay.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

hahaha, meantime a plate can be described as round, like it or not. You're silly.

Round pie-plate? Exactly! In Hebrew? There is a word for "ball" or "sphere".

IT IS NEVER USED TO DESCRIBE THE EARTH. The bible consistently describes a flat disc.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Wikipedia says: “…The seeds are usually about 1 to 2 millimetres (0.039 to 0.079 in) in diameter…”.

Mustard seed - Wikipedia

Should I believe you, or Wikipedia?

That's what I said-- and there are literally 1000's of herbs with seeds much smaller.

The Bible Is Wrong. Again.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Not really as I did no such thing. I provided the Roman map only to show what was the known world and the world ruling Kingdom in the days of JESUS in relation to "I will show you the kingdoms of the world". Please do not pretend I was saying things I have never said. That is simply being dishonest on your behalf.

And that was pointed out to still be a losing argument. A map does not help you when you do not understand geometry. It was also a bit of a special pleading fallacy. Logically it makes no sense to limit the discussion to the Roman world if Jesus and Satan are who you believe them to be.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nonsense. You claimed that ISAIAH 40:22 says that the earth is flat. You were than posted all the context around ISAIAH 40:22 that was showing that the context and topic of conversation of ISAIAH 40:22 has nothing to do with stating that the earth is flat. Then you were asked to show me where these scriptures were saying that the earth is flat. You have continued to ignore this question and have not provided a single reference that says that the earth is flat. Yet you continue to twist the scriptures to try and make them say things that they are not saying despite being shown why you are in error.

Yes, it does. Unfortunately you won't let yourself see that and there is no helping you. You tried to use "context", but to use context you have to be able to understand it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Read the context of the scripture that were provided for you. They say that God sits, as a judge or governor upon his throne, upon the circle of the earth; or, above the circle; far above this round earth, even in the highest heavens; from whence he looketh down upon the earth, where men appear to him like grasshoppers. He alludes to one that looks down upon the earth below him from some high place. This is the context. It is not saying anywhere in the context or in the scripture you have provided anywhere that the earth if flat. If you disagree please show me where it says in any of those scriptures that the earth is flat. You cannot can you. If you cannot why do you pretend that the scriptures are saying things that they are not saying?

Now may I ask you a question? Do you believe that there is a God? If not can you prove scientifically or otherwise that there is no God being an athiest? If you cannot prove that there is no God does this not concern you that you could be wrong and if you are wrong does this not worry you that maybe you could actually find yourself fighting with God who we all must stand before come judgment day? Just interested to see what you think and if you can provide an honest answer. You do not have to answer these questions if you do not want to. Maybe they can be for you to think about for yourself and answer.

Thank you for the discussion

This is merely reinterpretation after the fact. You only interpret it this way because you know the Earth is a sphere. There is no context that saves you. If your version of God is correct there is no "above the Earth" . It would be more appropriate as describing God as everywhere. There is no "above a spherical Earth". The Bible only describes the world as flat. You have to go into a song and dance every time an example of a Flat Earth is found, yet you cannot find any spherical Earth verses.


As to your vain threat. Why aren't you worried about the Flying Spaghetti Monster? You might find yourself to be fighting against God (Quob). Also, you should try to learn what atheism is.

 

[Skwim]

Fun technical fact, my friend for this parable the mustard tree was indeed one of the smallest seeds known and used in Israel and for it's size that turned into one of the largest trees relative to the seeds size.

It may well be "one of the smallest seeds known in Israel" but it certainly isn't "the smallest of all seeds" as Jesus contends.

Mark 4:31
"It is like a mustard seed, which, when sown upon the ground, is the smallest of all the seeds on earth;"

​

Nope, your strained apologetic here has grown tiresome and sad. You have failed to save both your Bible and Jesus from their error.

I challenge you to show me a smaller seed that grows into a larger tree known in Israel in the days of JESUS that his listeners would be able to recognise and relate to? There is none

Why should I care? It's certainly not germane to the issue, but rather a ruse you're using to avoid the facts.

You may not like it but JESUS spoke the truth.

Jesus spoke a falsehood. Neither the seed of the mustard herb or the mustard tree are "the smallest of all seeds." As is plainly evident from the image in the OP the seeds of the wolffia, orchid, and poppy are all smaller.

.

 

[1213]

That's what I said-- and there are literally 1000's of herbs with seeds much smaller.

The Bible Is Wrong. Again.

Ok, I admit, my answer was not good. So, if you allow, I try again. So, let’s look first what the Bible said:

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
Matt. 13:31-32

It says “least”. Thing can be least in many meanings. In this case it the mustard tree seed was not appreciated as high as the other plants and so was least of the seeds, low in rank. But it can grow as said there and as can be seen from the images here:

https://www.google.fi/search?q=must...=0.95#imgrc=04-HVlUpCToJyM:&spf=1577391708442


Sorry, I should have been more focused.

 

[3rdAngel]

So you shout that it is OBVIOUS there cannot be any god?

Especially the impossible god of the bible? Impossible Things do not exist.

Bible god? Is both "All Good" and "Created All Evil" and worse-- uses evil torture to get and keep followers? Impossible. Does not exist.

Bible god? Is also One, but is Three, but is ... what? Impossible Thing. Does Not Exist.

Christian Bible God? Is 100% Human, but 100% God, but fully human but fully god but... sacrificed himself to get a loophole in the rules he himself created to appease himself because a rib-woman ate a Magic Fruit fooled by a talking snake. Impossible. Does Not Exist.

So yeah-- Wise Men Shout It From The Mountaintop-- Bible God Does Not exist as written.

Not at all. The wise in God's eyes are those who believe and follow his Word *PSALMS 107:42-43; PROVERBS 3:35; PROVERBS 14:6; PROVERBS 10:8; . According to the scriptures the fool says in his heart there is no God *PSALMS 14:1

 

[3rdAngel]

You cannot actually read, obviously.

SHOW ME A BIBLE VERSE DESCRIBING A BALL-SHAPED EARTH: you cannot.

100% of the Bible describes a FLAT PLATE.

No problem

ISAIAH 40:17-25
[17], All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
[18], To whom then will you liken God? or what likeness will you compare to him?
[19], The workman melts a graven image, and the goldsmith spreads it over with gold, and casts silver chains.
[20], He that is so impoverished that he has no oblation chooses a tree that will not rot; he seeks to him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved.
[21], Have you not known? have you not heard? has it not been told you from the beginning? have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?
[22], It is he that sits on the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretches out the heavens as a curtain, and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in:
[23], That brings the princes to nothing; he makes the judges of the earth as vanity.
[24], Yes, they shall not be planted; yes, they shall not be sown: yes, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow on them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.
[25], To whom then will you liken me, or shall I be equal? said the Holy One.

The scriptures say that God sits, as a judge or governor upon his throne, upon the circle of the earth; or, above the circle; far above this round earth, even in the highest heavens; from whence he looketh down upon the earth, where men appear to him like grasshoppers. He alludes to one that looks down upon the earth below him from some high place. This is the context.

Now please show me a scripture that says that the earth is flat? You cannot can you. If you cannot why do you pretend that the scriptures are saying things that they are not saying?

Your welcome

 

[3rdAngel]

"Conversation"? You mean your false "explainations" of what is actually written?

Your cries of "IsNotIsNotIsNotIsNotIsNotIsNotIsNotIsNotIsNot"?

okaaaaay.

You have been shown from the scriptures why your interpretation of them is in error. You are free to believe or not believe. According to the scriptures we all answer to God come judgment day. That time however will be too late for many. Yikes

 

[3rdAngel]

That's what I said-- and there are literally 1000's of herbs with seeds much smaller.

The Bible Is Wrong. Again.

The bible is not wrong. You are and here is why...

1. The actual mustard plant being referred to in the scriptures is unknown. It is not the same as the comonly cultivated mustard plants we have today as shown in your picture above. The scriptures here are in reference to the mustard tree some believe refer to a tree known in the middle east as Salvadora persica.

It is mentioned that this plant was cultivated by the Hebrews in the Tamuld and grew into a tree having similar properties to mustard. Luke's account of the same parable in Luke 13:19 says that this mustard plant turned into a great tree. So the above is evidence that we are not referring to the common mustard plant where birds can build their nests.

The mustard tree is mentioned in the Greek new testament through the name G4615 σίναπι; sinapi which means a plant to hurt and sting; mustard. The Hebrew and Syriac name being mustard and the Arabic name being chardul or Khardal which has the same properties as the smaller mustard plant as we know it. It also has the smallest of seeds (not smallest known seed) but at the time of the writing of the scriptures for most people it would have been known as some of the smallest cultivated of seeds that can grow into a tree up to 25 feet high.

(Source; On the Identification of the Mustard Tree of Scripture Author(s): J. Forbes Royle Source: The Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. 8 (1846), pp. 113-137, Cambridge University press)

............

2. Matthew 13:31-32 is in relation to a parable and faith and says...

Matthew 13:31-32 [31], Another parable put he forth to them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: [32], Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Jesus was not giving a technical discussion on horticulture comparing all seeds and trees of the earth. The next thing I am sure you will start saying is that the Kingdom of Heaven is a mustard seed because it says; "The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed.."

Fact is my friend it is a parable showing how faith can grow. That being said the size of the mustard seed is in relation to what it becomes - a tree that the birds of the field can nest in. Jesus used the smallest seed familiar to a native people and farmers in that region —a small seed that unlike an orchid seed grows to have “big branches that the birds in the air can perch in”—to illustrate that the kingdom of God began in obscurity but would one day “fill the earth” which is what we are seeing today.

3. Fun technical fact, my friend for this parable the mustard tree was indeed one of the smallest seeds known and used in Israel and for it's size that turned into one of the largest trees relative to the seeds size. I challenge you to show me a smaller seed that grows into a larger tree known in Israel in the days of JESUS that his listeners would be able to recognise and relate to? There is none. You may not like it but JESUS spoke the truth.

Hope this helps

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: ↑ Not really as I did no such thing. I provided the Roman map only to show what was the known world and the world ruling Kingdom in the days of JESUS in relation to "I will show you the kingdoms of the world". Please do not pretend I was saying things I have never said. That is simply being dishonest on your behalf.

Your response...

And that was pointed out to still be a losing argument. A map does not help you when you do not understand geometry. It was also a bit of a special pleading fallacy. Logically it makes no sense to limit the discussion to the Roman world if Jesus and Satan are who you believe them to be.

Hmm someone did not read the post they were quoting from did they. As posted in the quote you are quoting from the map was provided only to show what was the known world and the world ruling Kingdom in the days of JESUS in relation to "I will show you the kingdoms of the world" and that was the Roman empire. It did not say that JESUS could see every part of the Roman Empire. Please do not pretend I was saying things I have never said. That is simply being dishonest on your behalf. The post did not say he would see everything in the map.

Hope this helps

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: ↑ Nonsense. You claimed that ISAIAH 40:22 says that the earth is flat. You were than posted all the context around ISAIAH 40:22 that was showing that the context and topic of conversation of ISAIAH 40:22 has nothing to do with stating that the earth is flat. Then you were asked to show me where these scriptures were saying that the earth is flat. You have continued to ignore this question and have not provided a single reference that says that the earth is flat. Yet you continue to twist the scriptures to try and make them say things that they are not saying despite being shown why you are in error.

Your reponse...

Yes, it does. Unfortunately you won't let yourself see that and there is no helping you. You tried to use "context", but to use context you have to be able to understand it.

Context determines the topic of the conversation. There is nothing in the context of ISAIAH 40:17-25 that is talking about a flat earth. The scriptures say that God sits, as a judge or governor upon his throne, upon the circle of the earth; or, above the circle; far above this round earth, even in the highest heavens; from whence he looketh down upon the earth, where men appear to him like grasshoppers. He alludes to one that looks down upon the earth below him from some high place. This is the context.

If you disagree please show me the scripture that says the earth is flat. Context matters and you have provided none and it shows why you are in error.

Your welcome