Sex and Catholicism

[Estro Felino]

She clearly had a great need for the confessional.
Sin needs religion and religion needs sin in equal measure.
Then Both are sure to prosper.

Sicily, seventies.
This is the typical Catholic married couple going to church. I will translate the first part of the interview:
Interviewer: You want no kids. Your husband doesn't agree with that. How can you guys do?
Sicilian Lady: I am taking the pill, so I won't have any children, any more.
Interviewer: Your mother told me she had several abortions.
Sicilian Lady: I had them too. I had two abortions.
Interviewer: Why?
Sicilian Lady: Before the pills were legal, I had two abortions. Because I want no kids.
Interviewer: What do you think of abortion?
Sicilian Lady: It's a rightful thing.
Interviewer: I think it's something we should avoid.
Sicilian Lady: We should indeed because there are other methods now. There are pills to take...so...

I guess this spontaneity doesn't sound that English or British...right?

 

[LuisDantas]

@Estro Felino , the Italy that you describe has sexual behavior and values significantly different from Brazil's.That has been clear for a while.

 

[HonestJoe]

What astonishes me the most about non-Catholics is that they believe that Catholics follow the precepts about sexuality dictated by the Pope and the Vatican Congregations.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would believe they do. That is why they're criticised for hypocrisy when they promote laws based upon their religious doctrine.

 

[Estro Felino]

@Estro Felino , the Italy that you describe has sexual behavior and values significantly different from Brazil's.That has been clear for a while.

In post no. 21 I provided with an example...it's what I observe.

 

[soulsurvivor]

What astonishes me the most about non-Catholics is that they believe that Catholics follow the precepts about sexuality dictated by the Pope and the Vatican Congregations.
That is really laughable. Catholics would be fundamentalists if they followed the Catholic doctrine literally.
I mean...in Catholilandia (my country) maybe just the 4% doesn't have premarital sex. That is, they have sex after the wedding.
And yet Catholic doctrine forbids premarital sex.

And since most people are Catholics, they use contraceptives all the time, even if they are forbidden by the Catholic doctrine.

Honestly I have never met a Catholic person (going to Church) that said that they would never use the pill or the condoms. Never.
And yet they go to Church and take the Eucharist.

Thoughts?

I believe (I could be wrong) but lots of people in the Philippines and South America follow Catholic doctrines strictly.

 

[ppp]

What astonishes me the most about non-Catholics is that they believe that Catholics follow the precepts about sexuality dictated by the Pope and the Vatican Congregations.
That is really laughable. Catholics would be fundamentalists if they followed the Catholic doctrine literally.

I too would be astonished by anyone in modern day who would be surprised at a disconnect in professed beliefs and actions taken among the religious. The problem is that the religious attempt to enforce their beliefs via force of law.

 

[Alien826]

I have always found it strange that the Catholic church forbids both contraception and abortion.

 

[John D. Brey]

I have always found it strange that the Catholic church forbids both contraception and abortion.

There is no greater drama in human record than the sight of a few Christians, scorned or oppressed by a succession of emperors, bearing all trials with a fierce tenacity, multiplying quietly, building order while their enemies generated chaos, fighting the sword with the word, brutality with hope, and at last defeating the strongest state that history has known. Caesar and Christ had met in the arena, and Christ had won.​

​

Will Durant, The Story of Civilization Vol. 3, p. 652.​

​

If art is the organization of materials, the Roman Catholic Church is among the most imposing masterpieces of history. Through nineteen centuries, each heavy with crisis, she has held her faithful together, following them with her ministrations to the ends of the earth, forming their minds, molding their morals, encouraging their fertility, solemnizing their marriages, consoling their bereavements, lifting their momentary lives into eternal drama, harvesting their gifts, surviving every heresy and revolt, and patiently building again every broken support of her power. How did this majestic institution grow?​

​

Ibid., Vol. 5, p.44.​

John

 

[loverofhumanity]

Generally speaking what people do , does not represent their religion . What is written in their scripture ( whether they follow or not..) is their religion .

That is an excellent observation. I admire your discernment.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What astonishes me the most about non-Catholics is that they believe that Catholics follow the precepts about sexuality dictated by the Pope and the Vatican Congregations.

What astonishes me is your presumed insights about "non-Catholics."

 

[LuisDantas]

That is an excellent observation. I admire your discernment.

Do you say that in a non-ironical way?

I feel that I have to ask.

 

[ppp]

Generally speaking what people do , does not represent their religion . What is written in their scripture ( whether they follow or not..) is their religion .

Generally speaking what people do, reflects their actual values. Whether they have a religion or not.

 

[LuisDantas]

I have always found it strange that the Catholic church forbids both contraception and abortion.

Far as I can figure, the sustaining idea would be that good Catholics will never engage in sex without accepting the possibility of pregnancy and the duties that come with it.

That would be fair enough in principle. But in practice it just doesn't happen that way very often at all.

Why would people insist on both adhering to a group with clear directives and make a point of not caring about those directives is a very proper question to ask.

 

[LuisDantas]

Generally speaking what people do, reflects their actual values. Whether they have a religion or not.

And as it turns out, hypocrisy and learned, false shame appear to be among the values of certain groups.

Why they call those religions and often even claim to be proud of it is a necessary but sickening question.

 

[Alien826]

Far as I can figure, the sustaining idea would be that good Catholics will never engage in sex without accepting the possibility of pregnancy and the duties that come with it.

Something like that. It can also be seen as "that's what sex is for" and any use of it that doesn't include at least the possibility of reproduction is misuse.

That would be fair enough in principle. But in practice it just doesn't happen that way very often at all.

It doesn't because people have to live their lives as well as go to church. I have a Catholic friend who is very engaged with the church, acting as a cantor and so on. She reserves the right to make up her own mind about things that the church teaches, having to problem with contraception and considering abortion to be a matter for personal decision. She's too old for either to affect her directly, incidentally. She also rejects the current practice of priests telling their congregations that they will go to hell if they vote for Harris (yes, really).

Why would people insist on both adhering to a group with clear directives and make a point of not caring about those directives is a very proper question to ask.

They get enough out of it that they don't want to give it up, so they construct a personal belief structure that they can live with. I don't think that's exclusively Catholic.

Incidentally my post that you replied to was really pointing out that not using contraception will tend to increase abortion, which surely they hate more.

 

[John D. Brey]

The males will even brag about having sex with their pals.

. . . That would be the celibate priests, right? Their pals and their Cardinals.




John

 

[blü 2]

What astonishes me the most about non-Catholics is that they believe that Catholics follow the precepts about sexuality dictated by the Pope and the Vatican Congregations.
That is really laughable. Catholics would be fundamentalists if they followed the Catholic doctrine literally.
I mean...in Catholilandia (my country) maybe just the 4% doesn't have premarital sex. That is, they have sex after the wedding.
And yet Catholic doctrine forbids premarital sex.

And since most people are Catholics, they use contraceptives all the time, even if they are forbidden by the Catholic doctrine.

Honestly I have never met a Catholic person (going to Church) that said that they would never use the pill or the condoms. Never.
And yet they go to Church and take the Eucharist.

Thoughts?

The Institution is more valuable to them than the facts.

This view doesn't appear to be confined to Catholicism or to Christianity.

Seen from the outside, it's often hard to tell the important difference between, say, belief in Jesus and immersion in Harry Potter and his world.

 

[John D. Brey]

The Institution is more valuable to them than the facts.

And well it should be. The institution, its myths, and doctrinal secrets, are where the salvation of the world, and the erection (so to say) of the kingdom of God (the new world) find their power and prestige. Just as in Judaism, so too in Catholicism, the mindless and spiritless masses know nothing of the immensely rich institutions they see as little more than lifeless relics to which they ignorantly genuflect merely because their parents and peers did and do. Nothing could sum up this thoughtless, hopeless, lifeless, religious impulse better than a statement Rabbi Hirsch wrote in one of his letters.

Today two diametrically opposed parties confront each other. The one party has inherited uncomprehended Judaism as a mechanical habit, without its spirit; they bear it in their hands as a sacred relic, a revered mummy, and fear to rouse its spirit. The others are partly filled with noble enthusiasm for the welfare of the Jews but look upon Judaism as a lifeless framework, as something which should be laid in the grave of a long since dead and buried past. They seek its spirit and find it not, and are in danger, with all their efforts to help the Jew, of severing the last life line of Judaism.​

​

Rabbi Samson Hirsch, Nineteen Letters, letter 18.​

John

 

[blü 2]

And well it should be. The institution, its myths, and doctrinal secrets, are where the salvation of the world, and the erection (so to say) of the kingdom of God (the new world) find their power and prestige. Just as in Judaism, so too in Catholicism, the mindless and spiritless masses know nothing of the immensely rich institutions they see as little more than lifeless relics to which they ignorantly genuflect merely because their parents and peers did and do. Nothing could sum up this thoughtless, hopeless, lifeless, religious impulse better than a statement Rabbi Hirsch wrote in one of his letters.

Today two diametrically opposed parties confront each other. The one party has inherited uncomprehended Judaism as a mechanical habit, without its spirit; they bear it in their hands as a sacred relic, a revered mummy, and fear to rouse its spirit. The others are partly filled with noble enthusiasm for the welfare of the Jews but look upon Judaism as a lifeless framework, as something which should be laid in the grave of a long since dead and buried past. They seek its spirit and find it not, and are in danger, with all their efforts to help the Jew, of severing the last life line of Judaism.​

​

Rabbi Samson Hirsch, Nineteen Letters, letter 18.​

Aiming to observe humanity with as much objectivity as possible is the beginning of wisdom.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Do you say that in a non-ironical way?

I feel that I have to ask.

Not at all. I just meant that religion teaches to do good but not all obey. If Buddha or Christ encourages love and people instead choose to hate then They are not at fault as the followers made their own choice.