Sex and Religion

[Storm]

Oh, ok. Gotcha.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Religions have always tried to exert control over people via rules regarding all aspects of life - why would sex be any different?

Personally, I think sex taboos may be partly rooted in men's attempt to establish control over their uncomfortably uncontrolable sexual feelings towards women. I think you can see this in any male-dominant religion/culture, even today.

 

[Alva]

I´ve heard of a time before religious orders, like when people experienced faith individualy through the nature phenomenon like rain, moon cycle and such. To be able to control a population, first there as to be a organized form of cult, right? With people encharged of the religious duties and so imbued with power over the comunity. So when do you think our control frenzy/compulsion started?

 

[Mr Cheese]

Ok, I have a theory on the origins of the various sexual taboos within religions. Lets see what folks here think of it.

Humanity has the bizzare need to exert control over their fellow human beings. I think that in the olden days when priests ruled the people they wanted to maintain control of the population. Now the easiest way to control people is to control what makes them happy. That is why money is such a good method of control, in enables happiness. So, go far enough back to when money wasn't used enough to exert total control and you're once again looking to control what makes people happy. Well, sex makes people happy. So, control sex and you control people. Priests came up with elaborate rules concerning sex in order to exert control over the population, they did it for personal power, not for God.

Just a semi formed theory but I'm curious to know what folks think and I'd also like to here any personal theories you may have. Maybe together we can shed light on the mystery.

well of course there is the esoteric aspect

which sees sex in a sacred way...

where we have hieros gamus, temple virgins, eugenics, and the earlier forms of what is now called tantra...

“Listen! The tantric mysteries are said to be secret, Not because the Tantra is immoral but because it is closed. Closed to the narrow-minded adherants of lesser paths.”

–Yeshe Tsogyel

 

[Mr Cheese]

I've considered this myself and I can think of at least two naturalistic reasons why fornication became considered wrong. One reason may have been to prevent the births of unwanted children that could not be looked after, another may have been to prevent the spread of diseases. So rather like eating pork sex between two unmarried people became considered wrong for reasons of self preservation. Later on things considered "wrong" by a society were seized upon by religionists and turned into "sins".

Also, in the 12th century..approx...

christians started to decide that sex was disgusting. Obviously there were predecessors, origen of course castrated himself... kinda funny for a neo platonic leaning non literalist....

Jews, who were highly persecuted for being "god killers" etc. decided that it was time to do the exact opposite. It is from this period that sex was for babies became a HUGE major issue in Judaism.... Jews were more so than ever to have babies and not see sex as bad, and to have no fornication.

Of course these ideas were highly influenced by the Sufi, who consider their entire "goal" to be lost in God, through divine union.. "Loved and lover must become one." Give gave way to the Zohar, which "appeared" over night. The Zohar is often cited as the most iportant kabbalaistic text. It is essentially a huge commentary on the first 5 books of moses.

A lot of our modern sexual inhibitions etc come from this period. Later on of course we have the victorians, who publicly saw sex as dirty, yet secretly were looking at porn... not to mention the Queen hubby's penis piercing (if he had one)...Victoria did have many children though.....

Just some ideas

 

[Mr Cheese]

Religions have always tried to exert control over people via rules regarding all aspects of life - why would sex be any different?

Personally, I think sex taboos may be partly rooted in men's attempt to establish control over their uncomfortably uncontrolable sexual feelings towards women. I think you can see this in any male-dominant religion/culture, even today.

Well men used acid...and lobotomized women in america, into the early 20th century... for enjoying sex.

if she enjoyed it, you could take her to the doctor and get her fixed.

"Just lie back and think of England...."

 

[slave2six]

Humanity has the bizzare need to exert control over their fellow human beings.

There is nothing bizarre about it mate. Nature is replete with species where one member dominates the rest - particularly when it comes to sexual rights. I give you the bull elephant seal as an example. He fights all the other males and the winner gets to hump all the females. The only difference in the case of humans is that the dominance is based on the ethereal rather than the physical.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

There is nothing bizarre about it mate. Nature is replete with species where one member dominates the rest - particularly when it comes to sexual rights. I give you the bull elephant seal as an example. He fights all the other males and the winner gets to hump all the females. The only difference in the case of humans is that the dominance is based on the ethereal rather than the physical.

Ok, I'll give you the fact that it is natural and therefore not bizzare but it is surely an animalistic need and as humans we should be seeking to rise above such instincts. I disagree that the dominance is based on the ethereal. Instead, I would say its based on the physical and blamed on the ethereal.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

So when do you think our control frenzy/compulsion started?

I think slave2six probably has the answer in that it started with our animal instincts and nature.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Religions have always tried to exert control over people via rules regarding all aspects of life - why would sex be any different?

Personally, I think sex taboos may be partly rooted in men's attempt to establish control over their uncomfortably uncontrolable sexual feelings towards women. I think you can see this in any male-dominant religion/culture, even today.

But the uncomfortable feelings are more recent and I doubt they existed in more ancient cultures, at least about sex. Status and class was what became important first. Sex would not have made anyone feel uncomfortable, but sex with someone of a lower class would have.

I wonder, was the first class structure simply master and slave? The concept of slavery goes back to tribal times so the first three classes were probably Man, Woman and Slave.

 

[slave2six]

Ok, I'll give you the fact that it is natural and therefore not bizzare but it is surely an animalistic need and as humans we should be seeking to rise above such instincts.

To what degree? Why?

I disagree that the dominance is based on the ethereal. Instead, I would say its based on the physical and blamed on the ethereal.

OK. No disagreement here.

 

[slave2six]

But the uncomfortable feelings are more recent and I doubt they existed in more ancient cultures, at least about sex.

You reminded me of an account I read a long time ago about an African tribe where sex crimes were virtually unheard of. Then the Europeans showed up and made everyone wear "decent clothes." Oddly, it was shortly after this that issues of rape etc became more and more prevalent.

People talk about our need to rise above our animal heritage but I think this is a mistake. It is in trying to deny who and what we are, by imposing regulations that are in direct conflict with our natures that we start introducing more and more problems. In the example cited, rape did not become an issue until "civilization" was imposed on the culture.

I would argue that the porn industry exists solely because of how we have come to define "decent" with regards to people. I laughed when I first read about people objecting to nursing moms whipping it out in public to feed their kids. That's about as basic and natural as you can get - and some people are offended by this. Why? I'll bet that primitive tribes never had any thought along the lines of what we call pornography today. But that's mere speculation on my part.

 

[linwood]

Well, it's all about patrilinealism. Unlike a matrilineal culture, a patrilineal one cannot function without patriarchy. It necessitates repression of female sexuality, because without control of that, they had no way to determine paternity, and the whole system of inheritance would fall apart.

Yes, I agree to an extent.

My problem is "when" did all this begin in the course of human civilization?
Has the civilized world always been mostly patriarchal?

Was pre-historic culture patriarchal for the most part?

I am aware of Canaanite and Babylonian goddess cults and the role of the female in those cultures polytheistic religions but am keenly uneducated about what the root systems of their cultures were like.

So, to maintain their legal order, they HAD to repress sexuality, and the most effective way to do this is by making it something shameful.

Yes, I agree with this too.
Someone somewhere has done this.

I`d just love to have some understanding of when and what the political, religious motivations for it were.

In a nutshell. I hope that was coherent, I'm not entirely awake yet.

Entirely coherent.
Thank you.

Ok, I’m looking at this from an ancient man aspect rather than current social norms. Storm’s mention of the gender issue, while true today, is not what I think early man was concerned with. Now your comments on patrimony and matrimony are spot on but still more in line with the early Abrahamic religions rather than ancient man. Ancient religions did not mind acknowledging the power of the female.

Yes, I know this was done as far back as the early Hebrew Yahweh cult.
I also am aware of prehistoric religions in the area having goddesses.
But, how much influence did this matriarchal culture have on any large culture as a whole?

What I`m clumsily trying to get at is...

Did any large civilization or group of humans live within a truly matriarchal culture?

Some did, others didn't. Those that acknowledged it, to my knowledge, also didn't make sex taboo.

A point worth quoting.

But that doesn't jibe. Further back, you don't have all these ridiculous taboos about sex. :help:

Ah, but you do have sex involved with religion. Take the prostitution cult of Greece. This could be viewed as a method of controling the masses by organising sex. Also, fertility goddesses addressed sex. Using sex for control doesn't have to involve creating taboos and I doubt it started that way. I think some how it became about taboos and it could very well all go back to the Abrahamic religions themselves as they seem to be the most weird about it.

Here`s a crazy thought.

Could the nature of the more modern patriarchal society to make sex shameful be a direct result of it`s usurping the goddess cults in ancient cultures?
Because Trey is right, while the goddess religions didn`t make sex taboo they did use sex in a more positive manner.(Actually I think they were onto something

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

To what degree? Why?

Might require another entire thread. But understand, when I say rise above I don't necessarily mean discard or that the animal instinct is obsolete and should be ignored. Instead, it should be recognised, used when appropriate and supressed when not. The key is knowning how to do this, something I think our entire race is still working on.

 

[slave2six]

Well, it's all about patrilinealism. Unlike a matrilineal culture, a patrilineal one cannot function without patriarchy.

Reminds me of a book I read by Orson Scott Card. In the book there was a society in which only women were allowed to own property and marriages were on an annual contract basis and it was strictly up to the women whether or not to renew the contract.

OSC has a very fertile mind. It was really quite a fascinating idea.

 

[slave2six]

Could the nature of the more modern patriarchal society to make sex shameful be a direct result of it`s usurping the goddess cults in ancient cultures? Because Trey is right, while the goddess religions didn`t make sex taboo they did use sex in a more positive manner.(Actually I think they were onto something

Can you expound on this? I don't know that using sex in ritualistic worship is any less hazardous than making sex taboo.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

My problem is "when" did all this begin in the course of human civilization?
Has the civilized world always been mostly patriarchal?

I think the when is with the begininngs of the Abrahamic religions. As for the second, I would say no but it may depend on your definition of civilized world.

Someone somewhere has done this.

Yep, see note above.

Did any large civilization or group of humans live within a truly matriarchal culture?

No, I think there were only a few small groups that were truely matriarchal, but there may have been some that were neither.

Could the nature of the more modern patriarchal society to make sex shameful be a direct result of it`s usurping the goddess cults in ancient cultures?

I think so.

Because Trey is right, while the goddess religions didn`t make sex taboo they did use sex in a more positive manner.(Actually I think they were onto something

Wow! I'm right? I gotta go tell my wife! :run:

 

[slave2six]

The key is knowning how to do this...

That sums up the "Why" in my question. When is it right to suppress our natures? To suppress rage and not murder people... that I can understand. But what is fascinating to me about this subject in particular is that there have been many cultures where polygamy was perfectly acceptable whereas today it's taboo. Why? Why is it OK in one culture and not another? I don't know the answer but I suspect that both are extremes from some norm. I just don't know what that norm is.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Can you expound on this? I don't know that using sex in ritualistic worship is any less hazardous than making sex taboo.

For more info Sacred prostitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I just don't know what that norm is.

There is no norm. Think about it. No matter what you come up with, there will be millions of people on the planet who will not subcribe to it. It can be the norm for a small select group of people, but when you are thinking of the entire human race there isn't one. Not even sexual attraction.