Sex and Religion

[twinmama]

Coming to this from Nordic POV. Not all ancient religions had any taboos with sex. It seems that when people settled down in cultures where there was lot of property(land) women became property?
In many nomad/hunting cultures life evolved around surviving and every member of the "tribe" was necessary. Like up here in North. No time for thinking sex taboos when 6 months of the year was in darkness and cold. Women hunted with men or took care of the herds(reindeers).
It is interesting that the same cultures that had the most strickt sex taboos also invented the horrid practise of male&female circumcision. The control of sex started all ready from children .

 

[linwood]

I would love to but I'm afraid I know little about it.

You`re not alone.

I know the Eqyptians had a fairly equal male female representation in religion but wasn't the Yahweh cult the religion of the slaves who were of another race and culture entirely? What was the regional origin of the race who were slaves to the Egyptians and followers of Yahweh? This might tell us a lot.

Ok, assuming the servant/slave class in Egypt at the time was another race and not just a lower class of Egyptian I`d put forward the western semites in the Sinai or perhaps even Ethiopia.
They had a god "Yahu" who seems to be very similar to "Yahweh".

Criticisms and theories on Yahweh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is also the Biblical tale of Moses who was living with these people when he first encountered Yahweh (burning bush).
Reading the story of Moses with these people in mind makes for a very complementary analogy between ancient Hebrew texts and what we`ve managed to uncover scientifically concerning these western Semites.

That unfortunately might be where our speculation has to end as I`m unaware of any knowledge of the day to day culture of these people concerning gender roles.
Someone here may know more.

It is assumed that the Abrahamic religions rose from nomadic sheep herders. I think that animal husbandry is linked to the idea that women are property. Could this have something to do with the religions view on sex? Women were considered property to be used for breeding, just like the sheep they tended.

That`s sounds plausible.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Coming to this from Nordic POV. Not all ancient religions had any taboos with sex. It seems that when people settled down in cultures where there was lot of property(land) women became property?
In many nomad/hunting cultures life evolved around surviving and every member of the "tribe" was necessary. Like up here in North. No time for thinking sex taboos when 6 months of the year was in darkness and cold. Women hunted with men or took care of the herds(reindeers).
It is interesting that the same cultures that had the most strickt sex taboos also invented the horrid practise of male&female circumcision. The control of sex started all ready from children .

Some think Jewish male circumcision may actually have begun with the Egyptians....

 

[Mr Cheese]

You`re not alone.



Ok, assuming the servant/slave class in Egypt at the time was another race and not just a lower class of Egyptian I`d put forward the western semites in the Sinai or perhaps even Ethiopia.
They had a god "Yahu" who seems to be very similar to "Yahweh"..

Egyptian culture changed, a lot....
So did their relationship to God/the Gods....

summary: It really depends on which period of Egypt we look at, if we want answers

 

[linwood]

Egyptian culture changed, a lot....
So did their relationship to God/the Gods....

summary: It really depends on which period of Egypt we look at, if we want answers

True but I think we`ve narrowed down the time period to around the mythical Biblical Exodus.

What we need is someone with knowledge of the cultures in that time period or at least someone who could point us in the right direction.

Tell me which Pharaoh had his "Heart Hardened" by Yahweh and we`ll be able to take it at least a little bit farther maybe.

 

[Mr Cheese]

True but I think we`ve narrowed down the time period to around the mythical Biblical Exodus.

What we need is someone with knowledge of the cultures in that time period or at least someone who could point us in the right direction.

Tell me which Pharaoh had his "Heart Hardened" by Yahweh and we`ll be able to take it at least a little bit farther maybe.

• Amenemhat IV (1815 BC to 1806 BC)[citation needed]
• Tutimaios (circa 1690 BC)- also known as Dudimose[citation needed]
• A Hyksos king (circa 1648 BC to 1540 BC)[citation needed]
• Ahmose I (1550 BC to 1525 BC)[citation needed]
• Thutmose I[citation needed]
• Thutmose III (1479 BC to 1425 BC)[1]
• Amenhotep II (1427 BC to 1401 BC)[citation needed]
• Amenhotep IV, also known as Akhenaten (1352 BC – 1336 BC)[citation needed]
• Horemheb (circa 1319 BC to 1292 BC)[citation needed]
• Ramesses I (circa 1292 BC to 1290 BC)[citation needed]
• Ramesses II (1279 BC to 1213 BC)[1]
• Merneptah (1213 BC to 1203 BC), son of Ramesses II[1]
• Amenmesse (1203 BC to 1199 BC)[citation needed]
• Setnakhte (1190 BC to 1186 BC)[citation needed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharaoh_of_the_Exodus

It is unknown which one….

What we do have are conflicting views, we have those that want there to be history and those that do not. The above gives us an example of possible historical pharaohs. As far as archaeology is concerned there is no real evidence whatsoever that the jews were even IN Egypt. Many within Judaism itself also deny that they were even in Egypt, Egypt and the exodus tale is largely seen as symbolic; Egypt representing ignorance, and thus the exodus is a move from ignorance toward the light and knowledge of God.

Robert Feather in his book on the Qumran Copper scroll http://www.amazon.com/Mystery-Copper-Scroll-Qumran-Akhenaten/dp/1591430143/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t explores some evidence that Jews were in Egypt, which include carvings and writings found in Armana, Ankhenaten’s city. Not to mention the fact that Feather pretty much demonstrates that the copper scroll itself is Egyptian. Or at least made to an Egyptian artisan's way of doing things (weight of metal etc etc etc)


What we do have to remember is that Egyptian history was obliterated (the recording of) at least once, possibly more, by the Egyptians themselves.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

It does seem obvious that "the priestly class" has long sought to control people's sexuality.

I'm not sure I agree. Did Native American medicine men try to control people through sexuality? I didn't think they did.

A better way to say it might be: "The priestly class sought to control people and sexuality was often a tool used by them to do so."

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Point of fact: there has never been a strictly matriarchal society in history; ever. "Amazon society" is a complete myth. There are plenty of societies which are matrilineal and one's that value the wife's family as being of foremost importance, but none that value the woman chiefly amongst the genders (and yes this does include societies with atypical genders as well: third or fourth gendered societies).

Not a point of fact. There is evidence that ancient Scottish Celts practiced true Matriachy. But I will agree that such examples will be small groups and few and far between.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Personally, I think sex taboos may be partly rooted in men's attempt to establish control over their uncomfortably uncontrolable sexual feelings towards women. I think you can see this in any male-dominant religion/culture, even today.

But the uncomfortable feelings are more recent and I doubt they existed in more ancient cultures, at least about sex. Status and class was what became important first. Sex would not have made anyone feel uncomfortable, but sex with someone of a lower class would have.

I think you misunderstood. I'm not talking about uncomfortable feelings about sex, but that strong feelings of sexual attraction can easily be felt as a lack of control, or that the object of your desire has some type of control over you. Men's aversion to this feeling could have contributed to a need to exert control over women via sexuality.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Actually no, SOME modern scientists think the amazons may have been mongolian descendants, blonde mongolians....

Not mongolian but rather steppes nomads who lived in Central Asia even before the Turkic peoples, Scythians. A tomb in Kazakhstan was found that had women buried with weapons and obvious injuries sustained in battle. Graves of priestess' were also found. It is believed that the Greeks ran into a tribe of these Scythians and saw women fighting with the men and the legend of the Amazon was born.

Archaeological Finds Pertaining to the Amazons
Amazon Graves Found in what is today known as Kazakhstan - CAIS Archaeological & Cultural Daily News of Iran©

 

[Mr Cheese]

Not mongolian but rather steppes nomads who lived in Central Asia even before the Turkic peoples, Scythians. A tomb in Kazakhstan was found that had women buried with weapons and obvious injuries sustained in battle. Graves of priestess' were also found. It is believed that the Greeks ran into a tribe of these Scythians and saw women fighting with the men and the legend of the Amazon was born.

Archaeological Finds Pertaining to the Amazons
Amazon Graves Found in what is today known as Kazakhstan - CAIS Archaeological & Cultural Daily News of Iran©

who were the anscestors of Mongolians.... I thought

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I think you misunderstood. I'm not talking about uncomfortable feelings about sex, but that strong feelings of sexual attraction can easily be felt as a lack of control, or that the object of your desire has some type of control over you. Men's aversion to this feeling could have contributed to a need to exert control over women via sexuality.

Interesting but I think I disagree. The priests may have seen a lack of control in men and called this lust but I don't think the average guy was all that uncomfortable with it. Take Chivalry, it didn't come from knights who wanted to control themselves and do good for their fellow man, it was created by the church and used to try and stop the existing knights from raping and pillaging across the country side. They created a false image that a knight was supposed to be and then guilted him into aspiring to be that image, or at least condition the next generation to be a little better.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

who were the anscestors of Mongolians.... I thought

Nah, the Mongolians didn't cross the mountains into Kazakhstan lands until Ghengis. That land at the time was populated by the Turks but before that it was the Scythians who were an Iranian or Persian people.

 

[bassplayerswife]

In today's society, along with the moral dangers, responsible spritual leaders also need to warn of the physical/health dangers of unsafe sexual practices. I think people would be more afraid of HIV, syphilis and Herpes than they would hellfire and damnation.

 

[twinmama]

Some think Jewish male circumcision may actually have begun with the Egyptians....

Yes, I know. Sub-Saharan and Egyptian areas are the places where circumcision started(both male&female). Later practise was accepted by judaism and then islam. It truly is an old pagan rite.

My point was that genital mutilation of children was/is accepted by people who allready had strong patriarchal and (sex)tabu-filled society?

Example from closer of our times;

100 years ago in Victorian times circumcision became the absolute cure against the filth of masturbation in USA. Not many know that also some girls got circumcised in USA back then as a punishment.
American medical books were filled with advice for doctors how boys should be circumcised without pain relief and as much as possible should be removed so erection would be painfull.
Excellent example of how sexual tabus are about control - people are even ready to harm their own children.:cover:

Some aboriginals also practise(d)subincision. It was not done as initiation rite but - surprisingly - it was done to compensate women's menstruations.

 

[bassplayerswife]

I thought I posted this already, but I'm still learning how to navigate this web site.
Anyway, I agree that priests/pastors/ preachers/ spiritual leaders all use sexual taboos, and morality as a means of control. But if they were truly teaching in best interest of their congregations, they would not only support the moral reasons to abstain from sex, and certain taboo acts, but they would also educate people on the health dangers of immoral activity and unsafe sexual practice. After all, the body is a temple, and I think people would be more afraid of Herpes, and HIV than they would hellfire and damnation.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I thought I posted this already, but I'm still learning how to navigate this web site.

Yep, your first post was two posts up.

Welcome to the forums, BTW.

Anyway, I agree that priests/pastors/ preachers/ spiritual leaders all use sexual taboos, and morality as a means of control. But if they were truly teaching in best interest of their congregations, they would not only support the moral reasons to abstain from sex, and certain taboo acts, but they would also educate people on the health dangers of immoral activity and unsafe sexual practice.

Perhaps, but I would include in this sort of education an instilling the idea of condom use. Also, I know of no faith group that currently educates women or girls on the fact that, for them, sexual relations with women have a much lower level of health danger than sexual relations with men would.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I thought I posted this already, but I'm still learning how to navigate this web site.
Anyway, I agree that priests/pastors/ preachers/ spiritual leaders all use sexual taboos, and morality as a means of control. But if they were truly teaching in best interest of their congregations, they would not only support the moral reasons to abstain from sex, and certain taboo acts, but they would also educate people on the health dangers of immoral activity and unsafe sexual practice. After all, the body is a temple, and I think people would be more afraid of Herpes, and HIV than they would hellfire and damnation.

While all this is true, this thread is about ancient religions prior to the Abrahamic beginnings. At this time disease would be considered punishment of the gods. This would be the time when Syphilis was first contracted and it is possible that it was the early sheep herders who founded the Abrahamic religions that first caught the disease. Syphilis was transmitted to humans via sheep sexually so we know it came from sheep hearders who were maybe a bit too lonely. Could it be that those early shephards who caught syphilis and went mad before dying are the foundation of the Sex is Bad view of the Abrahamic religions? An interesting thought.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Also, I know of no faith group that currently educates women or girls on the fact that, for them, sexual relations with women have a much lower level of health danger than sexual relations with men would.

Shhhhhhhh!

 

[Mr Cheese]

Yes, I know. Sub-Saharan and Egyptian areas are the places where circumcision started(both male&female). Later practise was accepted by judaism and then islam. It truly is an old pagan rite.

My point was that genital mutilation of children was/is accepted by people who allready had strong patriarchal and (sex)tabu-filled society?

Example from closer of our times;

100 years ago in Victorian times circumcision became the absolute cure against the filth of masturbation in USA. Not many know that also some girls got circumcised in USA back then as a punishment.
American medical books were filled with advice for doctors how boys should be circumcised without pain relief and as much as possible should be removed so erection would be painfull.
Excellent example of how sexual tabus are about control - people are even ready to harm their own children.:cover:

Some aboriginals also practise(d)subincision. It was not done as initiation rite but - surprisingly - it was done to compensate women's menstruations.

"good stuff"....

as I have posted elsewhere.... we also used to lobotomize and treat women with acid...

if they had orgasms....:sarcastic..in USA... in the 20th century...