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Sex and Religion

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
And religion all has a war focus and sets males as being more important.

So all that was just to say that religion was created out of war and that is why it is male dominated? At least I think that is what you are trying to say, you weren't exactly clear.

I disagree. You mentioned Mongols, yet they were not necessarily male oriented although they were nomadic, (is that what you meant by pastorial?), and war was a major part of their lives. Also, the Proto-Iranian nomads of the central Asian steppes went to war with their women at their sides and it was the women who were priestesses. Also, Native Amerians were considered pastorial and they went to war all the time. There religion doesn't set males as more important to females. Your statement sounds like a major generalization that doesn't hold out when looking at individual examples, especially outside of the Abrahamic religions.
 

ManTimeForgot

Temporally Challenged
No. War's importance is what determines the degree of patriarchy; roughly speaking. This is a general rule and its sociology's best explanation so far.


I mention the mongols because they weren't male centered much at all compared to the middle east, and there are good reasons for this. The mongols were war-like but war was not so important as to determine their survival. They warred with China in a kind of symbiotic/parasitic relationship (its not quite clear historically how much animosity actually existed and post Genghis Kahn the Mongolian Empire became Chinese since most of the institutions were Chinese in origin). In the middle east war was required in order to survive because virtually all of your neighbors were trying to kill you. The mongols were pastoral but were not sedentary (pastoralism is an economic model which utilizes primarily free ranging animals like sheep or yak) and had far more room to move around. As such they were under far less population pressure to compete for resources. Less competition means less importance for war.

Again, with the native americans. There was a HUGE amount of land area to work with. There was FAR less competition for land and resources. You can be war-like without war being an important institution. There were tribes of pacific islanders that would go to war every few years just for the hell of it. Literally. They would do it for bragging rights and whose status was highest on the island. You can go to war a lot without actually making war important. Competition for resources leading to needing war is what does it.

The more war is needed the more specialized your war tasks become with the accompanying consequences of females being used less and males being used more. Your institutions will tend to reflect this necessity. This means things like religion, family, economy, polity etc will all start to reflect the necessity of war.


Egalitarianism is a variable function. There is not a 1-1 correlation between importance of war and the degree of patriarchy, but it is the strongest correlation we have. Sexual taboos, family structure, local resources, total arable land area, etc will all contribute towards relative importance of male versus female. But if you want to know what causes an extreme of patriarchy, then you need but look at war.

MTF
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
No. War's importance is what determines the degree of patriarchy; roughly speaking.

Ok, this is making more sense, sorry but I was trying to relate what you were saying to the OP rather than patriarchy.

However, with the Mongols, you're really saying that war was important to the people who conquored more land mass than any other people on the planet? That seems a little bizzare to me.

Personally, I think patriarchy arose from culture and then colored the methods of war rather than the other way around.
 

ManTimeForgot

Temporally Challenged
War was not important to their immediate survival. If for some reason the mongols decided to whole up in their little area they would not die off. China and Mongolia grew up in a kind of twisted symbiosis of sorts. The nomads grew "used" to the spoils they obtained attacking the "weak" city dwellers and the city dwellers became more inventive and tried to grow stronger to repel the invaders.

As I said the Celts, Nords, and Mongols all highly valued war, but it was more about prowess than about how important it was to their survival. Individual combat and how many enemies you have personally slain were marks of maturity and the hallmark of a man in those societies.


War as a competition for survival, for resources is what does it. This creates huge selection pressures for specialized war tasks. Take a look at a brief history or synopsis of war in the Middle East from earliest history till present and it literally is a who's who of everyone kicking each other's ***es over and over again. Take a look at the more "peaceful" pacific islands where war is prevalent, but not important and it might very well happen nearly as often, but it is more a religious and political ritual than an actual combat between nations.

MTF
 

jtartar

Well-Known Member
How so Storm?

I think Trey may be onto something but I`ve always wondered about our cultural gender roles and whether they formed in our religions or our religions formed them.

Kind of a chicken or egg situation.

What`s your insight?

linwood,
A truely wise person will search the Holy Scriptures without preconceived ideas, and allow the Scriptures to form his Philosophy of Life.
This is called Biblical Theology.
Many people are lead wrong because they put too much faith in what people tell them that the Bible says, instead of searching the scriptures to make sure of what it really says, Acts 17:11.
If we don't study the scriptures ourselves, we are taking hearsay to determine what we believe, and something as important as everlasting life. That is not wise!!! Hearsay is not even allowed in a court of law. Are you going to allow hearsay determine your destiny???
 

Wandered Off

Sporadic Driveby Member

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
linwood,
A truely wise person will search the Holy Scriptures without preconceived ideas, and allow the Scriptures to form his Philosophy of Life.
This is called Biblical Theology.
Many people are lead wrong because they put too much faith in what people tell them that the Bible says, instead of searching the scriptures to make sure of what it really says, Acts 17:11.
If we don't study the scriptures ourselves, we are taking hearsay to determine what we believe, and something as important as everlasting life. That is not wise!!! Hearsay is not even allowed in a court of law. Are you going to allow hearsay determine your destiny???

So by "the scriptures" you mean The Bible? How did you come to pick that particular holy book? Did you do a comparison study of all the world's holy books? Did you just pick one randomly? Or maybe did someone start telling you from the time you were a small child that The Bible was the scriptures you should use?
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
linwood,
A truely wise person will search the Holy Scriptures without preconceived ideas, and allow the Scriptures to form his Philosophy of Life.
This is called Biblical Theology.
Many people are lead wrong because they put too much faith in what people tell them that the Bible says, instead of searching the scriptures to make sure of what it really says, Acts 17:11.
If we don't study the scriptures ourselves, we are taking hearsay to determine what we believe, and something as important as everlasting life. That is not wise!!! Hearsay is not even allowed in a court of law. Are you going to allow hearsay determine your destiny???

jtartar,

A truly wise person realizes that the "Holy Scriptures" ARE HEARSAY!
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
So by "the scriptures" you mean The Bible? How did you come to pick that particular holy book? Did you do a comparison study of all the world's holy books? Did you just pick one randomly? Or maybe did someone start telling you from the time you were a small child that The Bible was the scriptures you should use?


what about the kama sutra

these are holy scriptures....
 

ellie

New Member
If you go to a catholic college some required reading is about the lifes of priests and they teach you that that priest use to be punished for having sex with animals when the monestaries were just farms and they had to grow crops and animinals to survive. How do you do a goat or a cow and then codemn someone for having sex with a consenting appropiate species, human.
 

ManTimeForgot

Temporally Challenged
Having gone back through some of my old books I did encounter a competing theory to the one I posted; I just didn't care for it as much and as such had forgotten about it.

If you read Alphabet versus the Goddess there is an evidenced theory positing that the advent and focus on writing was what caused the institutionalization of patriarchy. Prior to the advent of writing most communication was picture based and the understanding of the world was very holistic. And as the societal world-view narrows (becoming more abstract and focused) the faculties and predispositions of men become more important.

Notice that the mongols were illiterate and in nordic society (they still used pictograms) and much of their society was illiterate or functionally so. So there is some credence to this theory.


I'd say that "best case" for this theory is that the initial push towards patriarchy might have been the result of the institutionalization of writing and then extreme patriarchy came about as a result of the institutionalization of war.


MTF
 
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