Sex before marriage?????

[ChristineM]

Then maybe...

Well done, thats the real one at galleria del'Accademia, not the fake at Piazza della Signoria that all the tourists think is the real one.

But no. Far too pretty pretty for me, not really into gods (or goddesses), i would be quite happy with thus guy

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Then maybe...

That's supposed to be King David from the Bible, not a deity. And there's many stories of gods having gay relationships with human men in Greek myth.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I do not deny that I would like it if some atheists became believers, but not in the sense you put it, of being saved. And I have a firm belief in free will and that everyone should make their own choices so I certainly am not trying to convert anyone. That’s why when atheists ask me to prove to them that God exists or prove to them that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God, I tell them that is not my job, because Baha’u’llah wrote that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone except himself.

From what I have seen and heard, most Baha’is are busy with Baha’i activities and teaching the Faith as it is called is just one thing “some Baha’is” do. I might be wrong, but I do not think most Baha’is take it as seriously as I do. But how much clearer can Baha’u’llah be than this?

“O ye beloved of God! Repose not yourselves on your couches, nay bestir yourselves as soon as ye recognize your Lord, the Creator, and hear of the things which have befallen Him, and hasten to His assistance. Unloose your tongues, and proclaim unceasingly His Cause. This shall be better for you than all the treasures of the past and of the future, if ye be of them that comprehend this truth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 330

“Gird up the loins of thine endeavor, that haply thou mayest guide thy neighbor to the law of God, the Most Merciful. Such an act, verily, excelleth all other acts in the sight of God, the All-Possessing, the Most High. Such must be thy steadfastness in the Cause of God, that no earthly thing whatsoever will have the power to deter thee from thy duty. Though the powers of earth be leagued against thee, though all men dispute with thee, thou must remain unshaken.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339

Then the Bab wrote the following:

“Wert thou to open the heart of a single soul by helping him to embrace the Cause of Him Whom God shall make manifest, thine inmost being would be filled with the inspirations of that august Name. It devolveth upon you, therefore, to perform this task in the Days of Resurrection, inasmuch as most people are helpless, and wert thou to open their hearts and dispel their doubts, they would gain admittance into the Faith of God. Therefore, manifest thou this attribute to the utmost of thine ability in the days of Him Whom God shall make manifest. For indeed if thou dost open the heart of a person for His sake, better will it be for thee than every virtuous deed; since deeds are secondary to faith in Him and certitude in His Reality. XVII, 15.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, p. 133

Clearly, I have my matching orders, and I take them very seriously. I do not care what other Baha’is do, I have never cared what others do, why I am called Trailblazer.

“Be not grieved if thou performest it thyself alone. Let God be all-sufficient for thee. Commune intimately with His Spirit, and be thou of the thankful. Proclaim the Cause of thy Lord unto all who are in the heavens and on the earth. Should any man respond to thy call, lay bare before him the pearls of the wisdom of the Lord, thy God, which His Spirit hath sent down unto thee, and be thou of them that truly believe. And should any one reject thine offer, turn thou away from him, and put thy trust and confidence in the Lord, thy God, the Lord of all worlds.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 280


Holy moly! ~~~ This is practically all atheists say, at least to me. Sorry, I cannot quote atheists from other forums because that is not right. They posted to me on other forums in confidence. Sure, they are public forums, but it is bad practice to take posts from one forum to another forum. But it is not only on the “other forums” where atheists have said this. They have also said it on RF. I am not saying that ALL atheists would like to believe in God if they had the evidence, since some atheists probably have no interest in God. But if they don’t have any interest in God, why is this forum comprised of as many atheists as believers? Hmmmmm.....

This would be a great topic for a new thread:

“Atheists: Would you like to believe in God if there was good evidence for God?”

I could post it but I am not sure I want to have another new thread wherein I am fielding posts day and night, after what happened last Friday night. Besides, I promised @ Left Coast that I would start a thread entitled “Evidence that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God”and it keeps getting waylaid by other threads and posts I have to answer.


Do you realize that you just said that you thank god you are an atheist.
Maybe that was a Freudian slip.

Have you ever heard the saying “I tried to have a nice day once, it didn’t work?”

Well, I tried to be an atheist more than once, but it didn’t work. It was my husband who is a devout Baha’i who keeps telling me I should become an atheist, since I get angry at God so much.

Proselytism is against the forum rules:

"8. Preaching/Proselytizing
Creating (or linking to) content intended to convert/recruit others to your religion, spirituality, sect/denomination, or lack thereof is not permitted. Similarly, attempting to convert others away from their religion, spiritual convictions, or sect/denomination will also be considered a form of preaching. Stating opinions as a definitive matter of fact (i.e., without "I believe/feel/think" language, and/or without references) may be moderated as preaching."
RF Rules

 

[Trailblazer]

That doesn't address the question of why Abdu'l-Baha, a mere mortal, would need to or want to or have the authority to or have the knowledge to "elaborate a little bit" on the words of God's Messenger Bahá’u’lláh.

In His Will and Testament Baha’u’llah designated Abdu’l-Baha as His successor and the centre of His Covenant, so Abdu’l-Baha had the authority to interpret the Writings of Baha’u’llah and explain what they mean.

Kitáb-i-'Ahd

The Kitáb-i-`Ahd (Arabic: ﻛﺘﺎﺏ ﻋﻬﺪﻱ‎ literally "Book of My Covenant") is the Will and Testament of Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, where he selects his son `Abdu'l-Bahá as his successor. It was written at least one year before Bahá'u'lláh died in 1892.[1] An English translation is included in the Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, published in 1978.

While the Tablet of the Branch, composed in the Adrianople period had clearly signaled a high station for "the Branch of Holiness" and the Kitáb-i-Aqdas has specified that this high station involved leadership of the Bahá'í community after Bahá'u'lláh's passing, it was only with the unsealing of the Kitáb-i-`Ahd after the passing of Bahá'u'lláh in 1892 that it was confirmed that the Branch referred to was indeed `Abdu'l-Bahá.[2]

Designation of Succession

In the Kitáb-i-`Ahd, Bahá'u'lláh refers to his eldest son `Abdu'l-Bahá as Ghusn-i-A'zam (meaning "Mightiest Branch" or "Mightier Branch") and his second eldest son Mírzá Muhammad `Alí as Ghusn-i-Akbar (meaning "Greatest Branch" or "Greater Branch").[3][note 1]

Bahá'u'lláh designates his successor with the following verses:

The Will of the divine Testator is this: It is incumbent upon the Aghsán, the Afnán and My Kindred to turn, one and all, their faces towards the Most Mighty Branch. Consider that which We have revealed in Our Most Holy Book: ‘When the ocean of My presence hath ebbed and the Book of My Revelation is ended, turn your faces toward Him Whom God hath purposed, Who hath branched from this Ancient Root.’ The object of this sacred verse is none other except the Most Mighty Branch [‘Abdu’l-Bahá]. Thus have We graciously revealed unto you Our potent Will, and I am verily the Gracious, the All-Powerful. Verily God hath ordained the station of the Greater Branch [Muḥammad ‘Alí] to be beneath that of the Most Great Branch [‘Abdu’l-Bahá]. He is in truth the Ordainer, the All-Wise. We have chosen ‘the Greater’ after ‘the Most Great’, as decreed by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Informed.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitáb-i-'Ahd

Specifying the form the soul will take: "heavenly rather than physical" is more than just an elaboration.

How does Abdu'l-Baha know this?

Why do you take his word for it?

Saying the soul is heavenly rather than physical is a very general statement. Abdu’l-Baha knew this from what His father said. After all, he was with his father his entire life, so I imagine he learned a lot from Him.

I take Abdu’l-Baha’s word for it because as a Baha’i, I have to be faithful to the Covenant of Baha’u’llah. Thus I have to accept the Writings of Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi as authoritative since they all had authority conferred upon them by their predecessor. Abdu'l-Baha conferred authority upon Shoghi Effendi when he appointed him as Guardian, so whatever Shoghi Effendi wrote is considered authoritative by Baha’is.

Shoghi Efendi wrote a lot of cool stuff about the soul and the spiritual world (afterlife):

Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm sure you can give me an example of two of mediums whose "stories line up with what was written by Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha".

One of them is Wellesley Tudor Pole.
A second one is Emanuel Swedenborg.

That's what you wrote. Michael Tymn has written over half dozen books. So, do you believe him and his motives or do you now see a red flag?

I am not going to judge by how many books he wrote. His depictions align with what the Baha’i Faith teaches, so that is why I consider him credible.

Here is an article a Baha’i scholar wrote about the afterlife. One can clearly see how it corresponds to what Tymn wrote.

Death and Dying in the Bahá’í Faith

What specific correlations?

This is a big subject, but some of these correlations can be seen if we look at some excerpts from that article I linked to above.

Death is regarded as the shedding away of the physical frame but no more, the real part of the person is the soul, which is indestructible. In this there is nothing new, but the Bahá’í thought added another dimension to this idea. The soul is the sum total of the personality it is the person himself; the physical body is pure matter with no real identity. The person, having left his material side behind, remains the same person, and he continues the life he conducted in the physical world. His heaven therefore is the continuation of the pure life that he conducted in the physical world, and his hell is the continuation of the immoral life, which he conducted on earth. The effort to come nearer to God in the physical world continues with coming near God in the heaven of the mystical paradise. Remoteness from God in the physical life means remoteness in the world to come.

The challenge of life in this world continues in the world of spiritual reality as well, only that in the latter the meeting of this challenge is easier because the person is free from physical needs.

Bahá’u’lláh explains that since the mystery of death has such fateful effects, it better remains unrevealed, but he confides that far from being an occasion for grief, death is an opportunity for joy. For the soul is freed from the material form just like the bird is freed when the cage is broken.

Are you so gullible and naive that you believe what people say about their motives?

No, I do not believe everything I read, but since the books correlate with what the Baha’i Writings say, I lend them credence. I also cannot think of any reason why Tymn would lie. At the very worst, some of what is in his book is not entirely accurate but the gist of it aligns with Baha’i so I think there is ‘some truth’ to it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then show some from this forum. I've been on RF for three years. I've been on other forums. I've never heard an atheist say: "they would like to believe in God if they only had the evidence." Maybe a stretch would be a tongue-in-cheek: "Sure, I'd like to believe in an afterlife..." followed by: "I'd also like to be able to fly to Venus without a rocket or spacesuit".

It is implicit in what these atheists say. Since they say they do not believe in God because there is no evidence, we can deduce that they would believe in God if they had the evidence they require.

Now, whether they would “like to” believe in God might be a different question. But you are in luck because I am going to start a thread on that which I will release on the weekend.

It will be entitled: Atheists: Would you like to believe in God if there was good evidence for God?

I will let the atheists speak for themselves. I am really curious to see what they will say.

 

[Trailblazer]

Maybe you should learn to recognize sarcasm when it is obvious.

It was not obvious to me.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your comment is an excellent example of your complete lack of knowledge and understanding of what an atheist is.

People don't try to become atheists. For many Christians who became atheists, it's probably the other way around. They tried to continue believing in God but came to realize it was just too ridiculous.

You didn't try to stop believing in Santa because you got angry over not getting a specific toy or doll. You probably wanted to continue believing even after you started hearing comments from older kids.

Of course I know what an atheist is, someone who does not believe that any God/gods exist.

I guess you did not pick up on my facetiousness? I cannot become an atheist just because I am angry at God. I cannot become an atheist unless I cease to believe that God exists.

My becoming an atheist was my husband’s goofy idea. He thinks that it is a requirement that Baha’is believe that God is All-Loving but that is not a requirement. The only requirement is that we believe that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God. My husband is just tired of hearing me gripe about God so he would rather have me become an atheist.

I tried to stop believing in God but came to realize it was just too ridiculous.

It would be much easier to be an atheist than a believer so being angry at God is not the only reason I would want to be an atheist. I would blow this joint in a heartbeat and go on a fancy vacation if I did not have so much evidence that God exists. What a bummer.

 

[Trailblazer]

Proselytism is against the forum rules:

"8. Preaching/Proselytizing
Creating (or linking to) content intended to convert/recruit others to your religion, spirituality, sect/denomination, or lack thereof is not permitted. Similarly, attempting to convert others away from their religion, spiritual convictions, or sect/denomination will also be considered a form of preaching. Stating opinions as a definitive matter of fact (i.e., without "I believe/feel/think" language, and/or without references) may be moderated as preaching."
RF Rules

I guess you missed this part:

And I have a firm belief in free will and that everyone should make their own choices so I certainly am not trying to convert anyone. That’s why when atheists ask me to prove to them that God exists or prove to them that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God, I tell them that is not my job, because Baha’u’llah wrote that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone except himself.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Wet dreams aside, my comments are nothing to do with religious woo but everything to do with evidence.

And do you have any evidence for god making men ejaculate? Because it is a well studied phenomena and no god has ever been seen

Rephrasing to accommodate your anti-supernatual bias--any sexual statements you made not met by masturbation, requiring a partner for good health, and does the number of incel suicides approach a tenth of a percent of the number of abortions?

 

[ChristineM]

Rephrasing to accommodate your anti-supernatual bias--any sexual statements you made not met by masturbation, requiring a partner for good health, and does the number of incel suicides approach a tenth of a percent of the number of abortions?

Rephrase it any way you like, i wont be changing the facts.

But please advise how many of those unwanted pregnancies were the product of sex before marriage.

 

[ecco]

In His Will and Testament Baha’u’llah designated Abdu’l-Baha as His successor and the centre of His Covenant, so Abdu’l-Baha had the authority to interpret the Writings of Baha’u’llah and explain what they mean.

Very confusing. I thought God appointed Messengers. I thought after Baha’u’llah there could be no more Messengers for 2000 years. In any case, if Abdu’l-Baha can interpret Baha’u’llah 's words and writings, how do we know they are correct interpretations? If Baha’u’llah if the Messenger of God, why did he not write clearly enough so that further interpretation is not needed?


I took some time to read...

Bahá'í/Bábí split - Wikipedia

In one of the tablets, which is commonly referred to as the "Will and Testament of the Báb", Subh-i-Azal is viewed to have been appointed as leader of the Bábis after the death of the movement's founder; the tablet, in verse 27, also appears to order Subh-i-Azal "...to obey Him Whom God Shall Make Manifest."[6]

Bahá'u'lláh claimed that in 1852, while a prisoner in Tehran, he was visited by a "Maid of Heaven", which symbolically marked the beginning of his mission as a Messenger of God. In 1863 as he was leaving Baghdad in the Garden of Ridván, he made his first public declaration to be Him Whom God Shall Make Manifest, the messianic figure in the Báb's writings, to a small number of followers.[13] This declaration started a new phase of leadership in the Bábí community​

I will suppose that this Wikipedia page has multiple authors each with their own agendas.

 

[ecco]

I'm sure you can give me an example of two of mediums whose "stories line up with what was written by Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha".

One of them is Wellesley Tudor Pole.
A second one is Emanuel Swedenborg.

Geez. Pulling teeth.

Did you not understand that I was asking for the authors and their stories and what was written by Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha. Am I supposed to read everything that these two wrote and everything that Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha wrote to find what you think are the "stories [that] line up"?

 

[ecco]

Are you so gullible and naive that you believe what people say about their motives?

No, I do not believe everything I read, but since the books correlate with what the Baha’i Writings say, I lend them credence. I also cannot think of any reason why Tymn would lie. At the very worst, some of what is in his book is not entirely accurate but the gist of it aligns with Baha’i so I think there is ‘some truth’ to it.

"Some truth to it". You do have low standards when it comes to supporting your beliefs.

 

[ecco]

Con-men or con-women have financial motives and most of them don’t write books, because they can make more money other ways.

I do not know anyone’s motives unless they tell me. The man who wrote The Afterlife Revealed stated his motives and I believe him. It makes no sense that his motive would be money given what he wrote

But just as with prophets, just because most prophets were false, that does not mean ALL Prophets have been false. It would be a red flag for me if a psychic was well known and wrote a lot of books because that would indicate they were in it for the money.

That's what you wrote. Michael Tymn has written over half dozen books. So, do you believe him and his motives or do you now see a red flag?

I am not going to judge by how many books he wrote. His depictions align with what the Baha’i Faith teaches, so that is why I consider him credible.

"It would be a red flag for me if a psychic was well known and wrote a lot of books because that would indicate they were in it for the money."

"I am not going to judge by how many books he wrote."
​

Do you make comments and then immediately forget that you made them or do your views just change to try to counter my comments?

 

[ecco]

One of them is Wellesley Tudor Pole.

This guy...

Wellesley Tudor Pole - Wikipedia
Major Wellesley Tudor Pole OBE (born Tudor Wellesley Pole 23 April 1884 – 13 September 1968)[1][2] was a spiritualist and early British Bahá'í.

He authored many pamphlets and books and was a lifelong pursuer of religious and mystical questions and visions, being particularly involved with spiritualism and the Bahá'í Faith as well as the quest for the Holy Grail of Arthurian Legend.
​

So, a Bahai writes about death along the lines that Bahá'u'lláh wrote about death and you take that as evidence that he is indeed a true medium/psychic.

"But wait!" said the pitchman, "there's more". He also believed the mythical King Arthur was real and he searched for the mythical Holy Grail.


This is getting really embarrassing.

 

[ecco]

Many atheists say they would like to believe in God if they only had the evidence.

Holy moly! ~~~ This is practically all atheists say, at least to me.

Then show some from this forum. I've been on RF for three years. I've been on other forums. I've never heard an atheist say: "they would like to believe in God if they only had the evidence." Maybe a stretch would be a tongue-in-cheek: "Sure, I'd like to believe in an afterlife..." followed by: "I'd also like to be able to fly to Venus without a rocket or spacesuit".

It is implicit in what these atheists say. Since they say they do not believe in God because there is no evidence, we can deduce that they would believe in God if they had the evidence they require.

Wow, you do like to make nonsense assertions and then duck and dodge.

First, you asserted it is what atheists say to you, then, when challenged, you say it's implied.

You asserted:

• Many atheists say they would like to believe in God if they only had the evidence.
• This is practically all atheists say, at least to me.

Yet you can not produce even one quote from an atheist. Not one. So, why you would you make such a silly comment, to begin with?

The broader question is why do theists have such a need to hope that atheists secretly want to believe in a god? We don't. We gave up such childish fantasies long ago.

 

[ecco]

Now, whether they would “like to” believe in God might be a different question. But you are in luck because I am going to start a thread on that which I will release on the weekend.

It will be entitled: Atheists: Would you like to believe in God if there was good evidence for God?

I will let the atheists speak for themselves. I am really curious to see what they will say.

Let's remember that your original assertion was that many atheists have said to you that they "would like to believe in God".

Duck and dodge, duck and dodge, duck and dodge.

 

[ecco]

That’s why when atheists ask me to prove to them that God exists...

This is another example of your ridiculous unsupported assertions. Please show where an atheist has challenged you to prove that God exists.

 

[Muffled]

Sometimes I judge by numbers. 1 million abortions of unwanted babies vs. how many incel suicides, do you think?

Be cautious about confusing correlation and causation. If you're sure intercourse is better for female bladder control than abstinence, would you consider the correlation so accurate that you'd have sex with a man you don't love forever for health reasons? I don't think you would.

I believe a woman with bladder control is an oxymoron.