Sex/Gender

[Ignatius A]

"Two spirits" is not a gender, it's an orientation. Berdache is an early European designation for American Indians (in Canada called First Nations peoples) who did not conform to Western gender and sexual norms. The term has been utilized in anthropology and other disciplines to define American Indian homosexuality, transgenderism, and intersexuality. Many consider the term to be offensive, however, and in 1990 the alternative term two-spirit emerged.

Sorry but it's listed as a gender. Beyond that Ive not seen the "science" that says gender is determined by "feelings".

Gender Identity

Gender identity is how a person feels and who they know them self to be when it comes to their gender. There are more than two genders, even though in our society the genders that are most recognized are male and female (called the gender binary) and usually is based on someone’s anatomy (the...

teentalk.ca

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Never understood that thought pattern. Makes me think that since the black widow kills the husband after mating means that it’s ok if humans do it to? Or if some lions eat their young, we should have babies for supper? If it can be found in animal-land - it must be OK?

If you understand the why for behaviors species do, it would be understandable to you. Comparing these is apples to oranges.

Also, folks against lgbtq+ stuff have always used some form of "It’s unnatural!" Citing examples from nature shows it isn't unnatural. There's some truth to Kenny's argument that just because something occurs in other species it doesn't mean it will occur in humans, but an objective view like that has to concede that in human ethology, homosexual and transgender behavior exists and occurs frequently, so is natural for the human species as it does appear to have biological components that occur without artificial manipulation. Like, lions consuming their young or black widows consuming their mates.

Just as homosexual and sexual mimicry (which has cognates in gender roles in humans) appear in other species, so do homosexuality and transgenderism occur in humans.

 

[Kenny]

Humans are part of the animal kingdom.

Are you saying, then, if it is in the animal kingdom, it should be in the human-kind species?

 

[Kenny]

I agree. However if what they do supports the agenda then its comparable.
If it doesnt support the agenda then it ridiculous to compare it.

BINGO!!!!

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Sorry but it's listed as a gender.

"Two-spirit" is thought of as a third gender only by the native North Americans who coined the term, within the context of their culture and their understanding of non-conforming sexual identities AND orientations. Rather than condemn gays and lesbians, those cultures reasoned that in order for someone who looked like a man to want to have sex with (especially being penetrated by) another man must have something of the female in him. Same thing in reverse for lesbians. And of course, because indigenous peoples are also humans, they will have the usual share of gender non-comforming people as well. So this "third gender" is really thought of as more of a blend of the traditional 2 genders. (See definition of gender below.)

Beyond that Ive not seen the "science" that says gender is determined by "feelings".

Science doesn't really have much to say about gender, because it is a social construct, and as I'm sure you know, social constructs can vary between different social groups. You need to understand the differences between sex and gender:

• Sex refers to the male or female label healthcare providers assigned you at birth based on your genitals. This label goes on birth certificates. Chromosomes, hormone levels and reproductive anatomy play roles in determining sex. This label is totally uninterested in the conscious human that happens to be the bearer of those genitals.
• Gender is a social construct based on societal or cultural beliefs about how people should act based on their sex; things like choice of clothing, activities, interests or behavioral patterns.
• Gender identity refers to how your feel inside, regardless of the binary male or female label you were assigned at birth. It can influence how you choose to present yourself through your appearance and behaviors.

 

[Callisto]

Are you saying, then, if it is in the animal kingdom, it should be in the human-kind species?

Are you deliberately being obtuse?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Sorry but it's listed as a gender. Beyond that Ive not seen the "science" that says gender is determined by "feelings".

Gender Identity

Gender identity is how a person feels and who they know them self to be when it comes to their gender. There are more than two genders, even though in our society the genders that are most recognized are male and female (called the gender binary) and usually is based on someone’s anatomy (the...

teentalk.ca

If you had clicked on it, you'd have your answer:

"A modern English term that an Indigenous person might identify as that comes from the traditional knowledge of Indigenous peoples in Canada/Turtle Island/North America. It can mean a person who walks between genders; one who carries the gifts of both males and females, or one who is gender unique (not specific to any gender) and/or as a way to identify as 2STLGBQ+. When Europeans arrived in North America, they introduced homophobia and transphobia to many Indigenous nations and dishonoured the idea of what it means to be Two-Spirit. Today, many Indigenous Peoples are reclaiming the ancient understanding that there are more than two genders."

Though I'm not sure how authoritative "teentalk.com" really is here.

 

[Kenny]

Are you deliberately being obtuse?

I thought that was a good question to clarify what you are saying. Or are you saying that if it is in the animal kingdom, it doesn’t mean it should be in the human-kind species. (I speak in context of the original statement I made)

Or is it that since you don’t have a defense, you are trying to be offensive?

 

[Ignatius A]

Also, folks against lgbtq+ stuff have always used some form of "It’s unnatural!" Citing examples from nature shows it isn't unnatural. There's some truth to Kenny's argument that just because something occurs in other species it doesn't mean it will occur in humans, but an objective view like that has to concede that in human ethology, homosexual and transgender behavior exists and occurs frequently, so is natural for the human species as it does appear to have biological components that occur without artificial manipulation. Like, lions consuming their young or black widows consuming their mates.

Just as homosexual and sexual mimicry (which has cognates in gender roles in humans) appear in other species, so do homosexuality and transgenderism occur in humans.

Kenny's point is valid. Some animals eat their young so no one could oppose it if a human are their offspring.

"Two-spirit" is thought of as a third gender only by the native North Americans who coined the term, within the context of their culture and their understanding of non-conforming sexual identities AND orientations. Rather than condemn gays and lesbians, those cultures reasoned that in order for someone who looked like a man to want to have sex with (especially being penetrated by) another man must have something of the female in him. Same thing in reverse for lesbians. And of course, because indigenous peoples are also humans, they will have the usual share of gender non-comforming people as well. So this "third gender" is really thought of as more of a blend of the traditional 2 genders. (See definition of gender below.)


Science doesn't really have much to say about gender, because it is a social construct, and as I'm sure you know, social constructs can vary between different social groups. You need to understand the differences between sex and gender:

• Sex refers to the male or female label healthcare providers assigned you at birth based on your genitals. This label goes on birth certificates. Chromosomes, hormone levels and reproductive anatomy play roles in determining sex. This label is totally uninterested in the conscious human that happens to be the bearer of those genitals.
• Gender is a social construct based on societal or cultural beliefs about how people should act based on their sex; things like choice of clothing, activities, interests or behavioral patterns.
• Gender identity refers to how your feel inside, regardless of the binary male or female label you were assigned at birth. It can influence how you choose to present yourself through your appearance and behaviors.

Oh so I can be non-binary but I can't be two spirit if im not a Native American.

Are those definitions just from your head?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Kenny's point is valid. Some animals eat their young so no one could oppose it if a human are their offspring.

You read my post, correct?

 

[Ignatius A]

If you had clicked on it, you'd have your answer:

"A modern English term that an Indigenous person might identify as that comes from the traditional knowledge of Indigenous peoples in Canada/Turtle Island/North America. It can mean a person who walks between genders; one who carries the gifts of both males and females, or one who is gender unique (not specific to any gender) and/or as a way to identify as 2STLGBQ+. When Europeans arrived in North America, they introduced homophobia and transphobia to many Indigenous nations and dishonoured the idea of what it means to be Two-Spirit. Today, many Indigenous Peoples are reclaiming the ancient understanding that there are more than two genders."

Though I'm not sure how authoritative "teentalk.com" really is here.

So teen talk isn't authoritative enough for you? I thought gender was how someone "identified"? What other "authority" is needed? If I'm not native American I can't be "two spirit"? So someone else can determine I'm not "two spirit" even though I feel like my gender is "two spirit".

 

[Ignatius A]

You read my post, correct?

Are you deliberately being obtuse?

It's funny how people who makes the argument something is found in animals arent too keen on that argument across the board.

 

[Callisto]

Or is it that since you don’t have a defense, you are trying to be offensive?

If I ever decided to be offensive, there would be no need to question. Suffice to say, I've yet to ever come remotely close to letting loose on this forum.

I thought that was a good question to clarify what you are saying. Or are you saying that if it is in the animal kingdom, it doesn’t mean it should be in the human-kind species. (I speak in context of the original statement I made)

It would be a good question if this was a grade school forum. It should not be necessary to explain to an adult that there are shared characteristics as well as differences among species. Or that similar traits are not indicative of species being related.

 

[Callisto]

It's funny how people who makes the argument something is found in animals arent too keen on that argument across the board.

How so and how does that apply to me (since you quoted me)?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Everything is more complicated than we think. Seriously.

Everything?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

It's funny how people who makes the argument something is found in animals arent too keen on that argument across the board.

You didn't read my post.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Oh so I can be non-binary but I can't be two spirit if im not a Native American.

Are those definitions just from your head?

I did not say that. I said that the term was coined by and for native North-Americans. In 1990, in fact. But I would suppose (I do not know for sure) that if you fit the definitions that they hold in their minds when they use the term, that they wouldn't be disturbed if you applied it to yourself.

And no, my definitions are not from my head. You can easily visit Wikipedia (or in one case, Encyclopedia Britannica) yourself to find them.

 

[Valjean]

Never understood that thought pattern. Makes me think that since the black widow kills the husband after mating means that it’s ok if humans do it to? Or if some lions eat their young, we should have babies for supper? If it can be found in animal-land - it must be OK?

Not trying to justify moral behavior, I'm just trying to demonstrate that 'alternative' sexual attraction or identity is not an exclusive human foible. Sexual variation is a normal and widespread trait.

 

[Valjean]

That’s what I thought… comparing animal kingdom with humankind is apples and oranges.

No, humans are animals just as chimps, lab rats, fish and ducks are animals. There is genetic, anatomical, physiological, neurological and psychological overlap. We are not singular or exceptional creations.

 

[Valjean]

"Not just mammals. Homosexuality appears common in birds, as well."

Homosexual behavior that is.
A dog humps your leg, a ball, etc because of arousal or excitement.

Besides humans what others species actually have homosexual sex?

Homosexual behavior in animals - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Homosexuality in mammals has evolutionary utility, new study finds

Research shows that it is more common in social species where there is lethal aggression between males and functions as an adaptive mechanism to reduce intrasexual violence

english.elpais.com

The homosexuality in other species includes not only coitus or genital stimulation, but the formation of lasting, same sex pair bonds.